Skyrim talk:Archery/Archive 1

This is an archive of past Skyrim talk:Archery discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page, except for maintenance such as updating links.

Advancement

I performed an experiment with my mage (Character level 29, level 15 Archery) using a Long Bow (unupgraded), an Elven Bow (unupgraded), Iron Arrows, and Elven Arrows. My test target was one that could not block and would have enough health to sustain my attacks long enough for me to gain a full level (torture victim). Starting at exactly level 15 Archery, I attacked the target until I gained one archery level, then reloaded the game and tried a different bow/arrow combination. Here are my findings:

• Long Bow + Iron Arrows: 8 hits to level up
• Long Bow + Elven Arrows: 8 hits to level up
• Elven Bow + Iron Arrows: 4 hits to level up
• Elven Bow + Elven Arrows: 4 hits to level up

Based on these results, we can conclude that the rate of archery leveling is a function of bow damage (or possibly weapon quality). Arrow damage/quality either does not contribute at all, or its contribution is negligible. Could a registered user please repeat and verify this experiment so the results can be added to the main page? 17:55, 19 December 2011 (PST)

I have done some experiment with this. It appears only the bow "quality" counts toward the experience you gain, not the damage. I did a simple experiment of sneak attacking a Duargr DreadLord, I have three different bows. A heavily smithed Hunting bow (Legendary) that does 194 damage, a vanilla non-smith Daedric bow that does 142 damage, and a Legendary Daedric Bow that does 298 damage. I was close to level-up archery from 88 to 89.

• Hunting bow (Legendary) - 194 damage - 5 hits - NO level gain - the target died.
• Daedric bow (Vanilla) - 142 damage - 2 hits - level - target still live
• Daedric bow (Legendary) - 298 damage - 2 hits - level - target dies

I reloaded and tried multiple times, daedric bow (either the enchanted or not enchanted) leveled me up in 2 hit.--131.107.0.116 23:47, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

I would love to help with this, I am currently leveling a Warrior who will be avoiding archery like the plague and I hope I can use the graybeards or someone else to test this, I want to use a wider range of bows and repeated tests etc. Will be joining soon under the name slightlySU311ME. 24.125.121.57 03:03, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

Fast Draw Bug

I've been experiencing what I believe to be a bug regarding the 30% faster draw rate. While you can in fact draw the arrow faster, you still seem to be required to wait as long as you would without the perk to be able to fire it as far. This makes it much less useful. Does anyone else know what I'm talking about? 130.85.220.249 19:21, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

I think I do. I've had my arrows just flop down on the ground quiet a few times even though the nock and draw animation had finished. If you wait just a second longer, it fires normally, but I think the time IS actually shorter, just the animation and countdown were badly timed. Rayce Kaiser 12:46, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

I think I experieced the same thing once or twice however its not a recurring problem I seem to have had no difficulty pwning with the super awesome speed I LOVE the archery in Skryim its so much more fun being able to kick a mammoths ass on Expert with nothing but a superior Ebony bow and some glass arrows with elf like bow draw speed! ^_^ Skryim rocks (got skyrim the minute it was released for xbox 360) — Unsigned comment by 72.39.123.186 (talk) at 13:12 on November 18, 2011

I've experienced this issue too; however, i don't have the faster draw perk yet, and I believe the issue is related to zooming before the bow is drawn fully. In other words, the slowing time effect of zooming glitches the draw of the bow. — Unsigned comment by 50.9.33.113 (talk) at 15:09 on December 3, 2011

I have also observed a bit of weirdness with bow zooming, sometimes when I shoot an arrow and immediately unzoom the bow it seems to slow the arrow's flight. Though this may simply be a factor of the zoom effect compressing the FOV camera's depth perception. 98.228.90.26 06:58, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Does archery affect conjured bows?

Kinda curious about this one but does the archery tree affect and/or get leveled by conjured bows? --Dark666105 11:20, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

I think yes, shooting with a conjured bow levels marksman. — Unsigned comment by 85.180.90.168 (talk) at 15:12 on November 21, 2011

Definitely yes, I was testing a Enchanted Ebony Bow, a vanilla Daedric Bow and a Summoned bow with the Perk for summoned items to be superior at this point I was around 50 in Archeri and had 2 of the first Perks for archery (so 40% more damage).

the difference between the Bows was very small the summoned one the weakest but not by much considering that the Deadric bow was with Legendary after improving it — Unsigned comment by 91.199.36.10 (talk) at 11:51 on December 4, 2011

How much damage does a critical shot?

100%? only base attack?

If I do 10 damage, then it is 20 dmg with 1 point in Critical Shot? And What means 25% more damage at level 2? 225%? so 22 damage? Can anyone please explain for me? — Unsigned comment by 85.180.90.168 (talk) at 15:14 on November 21, 2011

After messing around a bit with this I don't think it even doubles damage of a normal shot. While I have yet to test to see if the amount of damage is based on the damage of the bow, the type of bow, or is a set amount, my interpretation is that the normal shot damage (d) is added to some hard number (x) such that [d+a=resulting damage] and leveling up that skill increase the chance of this occurring and the value of x (by 25% then 50% at levels 2 and 3 respectively) in a way mirroring the perks for blades (Bladesman for one-handed weapons and Deep Wounds for 2-handers). The only multiplicative increase to the value of a normal shot on hit are sneak attacks with the degree of draw in the bowstring also likely affecting the damage in some way as well. Ikthyace

Headshots with Archery?

Will headshots cause double damage (as in Fallout 3), or normal damage (as in Oblivion)? Might want to add that info to the article under "Notes" or whatnot. 195.67.240.236 16:48, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Headshots seem to do more damage, as getting a sneak(3x damage) headshot on a witch killed her in one hit, while a reloaded save and sneak(3x damage) torso shot lowered her health about halfway, and she promptly killed my character with fire and sparks.--74.108.158.212 20:19, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

I agree that headshots seem to do a bit more damage -- I like to wait until the mobs get closer and can usually take them down with a headshot. If I catch the mid-swing and accidentally hit a shoulder, for example, it SEEMS to do substantially less damage. I wish I knew for sure, though. — Unsigned comment by 75.146.18.65 (talk) at 20:10 on December 2, 2011

Headshots do not get any extra damage, at least against human/elven NPC enemies, Bears, Wolves, Druagr. A simple way to test is just to sneak up, save, shoot in the head, note damage, reload the save, shoot it in the body (repeat a few times for consistancy of course). On a totally unupdated version of the game (because the updates are broken apparently) a headshot will do no extra damage. JimmyDeSouza 23:56, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

They deal the same damage, but you have to remember that helmets have less armor rating than torso pieces of armor so less damage gets reduced. — Unsigned comment by 80.54.214.135 (talk) at 17:04 on December 7, 2011

I'm pretty sure the damage formula only takes into account the total armor rating of the character. Although they could certainly use a more realistic system based on individual pieces of armor, as seen in Fallout with the limb damage mechanic. Too lazy to check for sure. 142.167.20.223 03:22, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

There is no significant difference in damage based on the area targeted. Armor to the area is irrelevant. Posting anecdotal evidence of one instance is not a reliable basis for an assertion to the contrary. If you play on the PC you can use the console command getAVinfo health to get the exact amount of damage done by your attack. I have tested with the same bow and apparel and character stats against 2 Giants, 2 Frost Trolls, 2 Windhelm Guards, 2 NPC's that have body armor but no helmet, and 2 Draugr Deathlords performing 20 attacks to each of their heads, torsos, arms and legs and there was no discernible difference in damage based on target. The difference in damage, when it occurred, was less than 1 point of damage and it was often for the same body part. These were all done from the same save and exact same distance for each test target. --DagmarH 22:05, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

Weight of the bow

Does somebody know if the weight of the bow has any effect on shooting speed, stamina use or strafing speed (while holding the string back)? I'm asking this question because of i have a hunting bow and a nord bow. The nord bow does higher damage then the hunting bow but is heavier. Also the hunting bow is more expensive than the nord bow, while it inflicts less damage, is that due to lower weight than the nord bow? — Unsigned comment by 83.117.64.111 (talk) at 09:33 on November 24, 2011

I don't think there is any correlation between damage, value or weight for any weapon, including bows. I haven't noticed any significant strafing speed differences while using a drawn Hunting Bow or Glass Bow (it is very slow regardless!), and stamina use is the same (zero while shooting, same chunk lost when counter-attacking). So, all in all, don't worry and get the best bow you can! 195.67.240.236 23:58, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

Maybe it does influence the success of sneaking, if you have a heavier bow? The lower the weight the better sneaking will work. — Unsigned comment by 83.117.64.111 (talk) at 17:48 on December 5, 2011

The Nord Bow is an exception regardless, as all dragur weapons are near worthless (with the bow having the best cost efficiency) until you can upgrade them into "Hero Weapons" after the Companions questline, and even then they are decent at best. Below someone already gotten on draw speed, however. Ikthyace

ballistic arch?

One of t notes says that te arrow hits.slightly higher than the target dot, could this be.to counter the ballistic arch? I have noticed that bows seem to shoot much flatter than in oblivion, this might be why Qwertyone 00:19, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Yes, see the Glitches section. Though it's not really a glitch; I might move it to Notes.--74.108.158.212 20:14, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

For me, it seems like arrows have a similar trajectory to 5.56 bullets; that is to say they go up initially then start to drop the further they go. I've consistently noticed that short-range engagements require a low hold, medium range is closer to point-of-aim-point-of-impact, and longer ranges will experience arrow drop. — Unsigned comment by 98.188.116.174 (talk) at 05:58 on January 4, 2012

Anyone that knows his archery could tell you thats what arrows do in real life. the arc up then drop back down. as a former archery champion I found this to be very much to my liking as it brought more realisim to the bows. (btw if you think its a glitch.. archery probably isnt for you lol) — Unsigned comment by 68.203.13.153 (talk) at 18:23 on January 15, 2012

Upgrading Bows

Can someone tell me if bows such as Elven and Orc can be upgraded up to legendary. I am attempting to level up my elven bow and I have a level 55 Archery and 70 Smithing but it will not move past flawless. I am going to attempt to 1005 this so I have just been exploring and have not gained dragon shouts yet and I am still in Whiterun. I am level 26 overall. I am new to TES series so help would be appreciated. — Unsigned comment by 202.7.95.93 (talk) at 11:16 on November 28, 2011

You're level 26, with lvl 70 smithing and you haven't even gotten shouts yet? Anyways you can check the smithing tab for the chart on improvements. Basically, if you have the skill for elven smithing than you will need level 91 smithing to get Legendary, 74 for Epic, 58 for Flawless. Without the specific skill, 100 smithing would only get you up to Flawless, with Legendary taking 196 smithing (via enchants and potions)217.129.86.249 16:48, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

That, and you have to take the "Heavy" line of crafting, even if you're a light armor wearer. It's worth it, trust me.-Zydrate[][] 16:53, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

Sadly seconded. The top tier weapons (Daedric) are on the heavy armor side and, at least for me, you cannot come down from the dragon armors to Daedric, you must start from the bottom. Once you have the perks though any upgrades you give them will be doubled, as said before. Ikthyace

Just abuse the "Fort. Restoration Exploit" and make a "Fort. Smithing" Potion with a couple thousand % magnitude, you can then use firewood to make a 300+ DMG Longbow, and a 200+ DMG Iron sword, GAME BREAKER! But it's fun for a moment.--MarukiTheFaceHater 04:11, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

Arrow Multiplying glitch - doesn't work for me

I tried to pickpocket the guy at the Thieve's Guild, but he always shoots Dwarven arrows, no matter what I pickpocket from him or give to him. Dwarven arrows don't even appear in his inventory. (I'm playing on the Xbox.) I'm new to this wiki so I'm not sure how/if this information should be incorporated into the article. Does this glitch work for others playing on the Xbox? --Fang Aili 04:33, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

You've got to equip arrows to use them, so I'd guess you need the Misdirection perk in the Pickpocket skill tree to be able to steal the darwen arrows from him and replace them with a different type of arrows, or maybe you just need to give him better arrows than he already have (that would be elven, glass, ebony or daedric arrows)--193.252.26.70 09:40, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

Good point about maybe needing the Misdirection perk--I don't have that one. I did try to put glass arrows in his inventory, but he didn't use them. Just kept shooting dwarven arrows. --Fang Aili 17:59, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

Just wait until the person goes to sleep (around 2-4 AM). Then pickpocket the arrows he keeps wanting to use (they won't be equipped, since he's sleeping). 99.103.221.129 06:01, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

Different draw speeds for different bows

The draw speed of the bows differs quite a lot for me. Ebony and daedric are the slowest while the hunting bow is the fastest. Does anyone else experience this? — Unsigned comment by 217.94.126.33 (talk) at 12:41 on December 3, 2011

Yes, this happens to me, for shure! The forsworn bow draws MUCH faster than my Daedric bow. If some statistics found for this, then it should defiantly be added to the article.— Unsigned comment by 71.231.219.171 (talk) at 08:36 on 5 December 2011 (UTC)

Tested--the lighter bows definitely draw faster. Will try to figure out a way to get numbers. --Evil4Zerggin 01:39, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

(←) Alright, here's my test:

• I compared the lightest bow (Long) with the heaviest (Daedric).
• To make timing more accurate, I gave myself a time slowdown of a factor of 50 when zooming (player.setav bowspeedbonus 0.02). Times given here are full-speed time.
• It appears that firing a bow has three stages. First, the arrow is placed on the bow. Second, the bow is drawn back. Finally the arrow is released and the bow recoils.
• Placing and recoil seem to take about 0.4s and 0.6s respectively regardless of bow or perks.
• Assuming the animations are correct, drawing the bow takes about 0.6s for the Long and 1.2s for the Daedric.
• Therefore, my conjecture is that there is a "base" draw time of 0.4s, which increases by 10% (0.04s) for each weight unit of the bow.

--Evil4Zerggin 03:41, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Bound bow is drawn as fast as light bows like hunting bow and does still the same damage than daedric bow (exquisite) with the right perk. — Unsigned comment by 87.245.46.176 (talk) at 15:32 on December 12, 2011

While the animation on lighter bows such as the hunting bow certainly LOOKS faster, in my experience arrows released at the same time (ie 0.4-0.6 seconds in) have the same trajectory and do full damage, meaning that you can release an arrow with the daedric bow about half way through its draw and it will have the same trajectory as a fully drawn hunting bow. Try it now, get both bows, time the amount of time it takes for the hunting bow to be fully drawn, then fire, mark where your arrow lands. Get out your daedric bow and let it draw for the same amount of time and see that it hits in the same place (and if you are using an character/npc as a target for full shot damage). JimmyDeSouza 01:10, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

Arrows hook to the left when zoomed

Since the 1.2 update on PS3 I've noticed that when I'm zoomed in, arrows seem to hook to the left a bit. Enough so that at 15 feet aiming at a persons torso causes the arrow to miss about half a foot to the left. Am I the only one having this? 217.129.84.23 18:51, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

were you strafing at the time? I've noticed this pretty much always happens if I'm moving sideways when I shoot, zoomed or not. It's pretty annoying.142.167.20.223 03:25, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

No, this can be considered confirmed on 360 as well. While immobile shooting at immobile targets, immobile shooting at mobile, etc, arrows end up slightly left of the crosshairs. Perhaps this is intentional to facilitate precision aiming at longer distances without the zoom perk? Hard to see a tiny little bandit covered by the crosshairs. Either way, it is easy to adjust for as the "curving" isn't all that bad. A few practice shots at anything will allow you to get the hand of it compensate. Contingency 04:56, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

Levelling

It appears that the more damage done per shot, the more towards a skill increase is given. That is, using a strong bow with sneak attacks will give you more towards a skill increase per shot than say, using a weak bow with no sneak attack bonus. Please confirm.

-Moved from page for confirmation. His Immortal Majesty, Eric Snowmane 19:43, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Skills section?

It is representing what is currently an unfounded rumour as fact. It should only make its way onto the information page when it is confirmed, no?.

Also wtf does less overkill wastage on average mean?! Less arrows dissapearing? obviously not. Less charge used? No. It makes no sense. JimmyDeSouza 01:23, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

Overkill wastage is when you waste excess damage potential by exceeding the target's remaining hit point total with your last hit. For example, you hit a target that has 100 hit points and you do 500 points of damage. Those extra 400 points were overkill; they were just wasted.

Why does this matter? If you're choosing between A) a weapon that does 100 damage every 1 second and B) another weapon that does 500 damage every 5 seconds, the latter (B) will end up wasting damage when the second shot lands on anything with hit points between 501 and 999. Consider the opponent with 600 hit points. Weapon A takes him down in 6 seconds with no wasted damage. Weapon B takes him down in 10 seconds and wastes the extra 400 points of damage.--SDShannonS 09:44, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

Weapon A also took 6 Arrows and six whole seconds, Weapon B took two seconds and two arrows. I fail to see how weapon A is superior in any way when the target has more health than what you can overkill with a light bow, perhaps you can replace overkill wastage with *preforms much better in the early game due to ease of accessibility* (less perks and money invested) — Unsigned comment by 173.33.92.196 (talk) at 21:26 on December 21, 2011

You misread that. Weapon B took 10 seconds. 76.187.201.66 23:42, 23 December 2011 (UTC)evilneko

I misread nothing, you're arguing semantics. Immagine for a moment a bandit is staring you down with 300pts of health, you have a window of 4 seconds to kill him before he reaches you. On you is a light bow which averages 100 damage per second and a heavier bow which averages 200 damage per 2 seconds. The lighter bow will take you three seconds and three arrows to down the bandit and the heavier bow will down the bandit a second later with 100 points of this so called "overkill wastage"

At what point does this quantified amount of overkill damage matter? — Unsigned comment by 142.167.210.91 (talk) at 01:14 on December 24, 2011

No, this is clear and simple logic. No semantics here.

Weapon A killed in 6 secs with 6 arrows. Weapon B kills in 10 secs with 2 arrows. Despite the same DPS of 100, in actuality, B took LONGER to kill because of this "overkill" damage, as we've decided to call it. Clearly, this time difference "matters". But if it helps, some examples:

--So our two archers face off, yours and mine. 500 hp each. I shoot 1 arrow per sec for 100 damage. You shood 0.5 per sec (1 every 2 secs) for 200 damage. DPS for both = 100, sure. But after 5 secs, you're dead while I'm still alive with 100hp left.

Or:

--You deal a million bazillion trillion damage every minute. I deal 1 damage per sec, to make: 60 dmg/min. Obviously, yours is much higher. The enemies all have 1 hp. After 1 hour, I've killed 60 x 60 = 360. You've killed 1 per minute = 60.

My point? Yes, it can matter. In a non-semantical, actual way. — Unsigned comment by 74.103.72.10 (talk) at 17:38 on December 31, 2011

(←) Just to add, this logic only counts when already engaged in combat, when starting the fight with a shot, the higher dmg bow will always stay ahead of both bows have equal DPS ex: 100 DPS bows, 1 fires each sec, other fires each 5 secs (100 D/S vs 500 D/5S bow A starts with 100 dmg and gains 100 each sec, so after 10 secs thats 1100 dmg bow B starts with 500 dmg and gains 500 each 5 secs so after 10 secs thats 1500 if the fight lasted 6 seconds u end up with bow A: 100+ (6x100) = 700 bow B: 500+ (1x500) = 1000 this stays like this al the way up to 9 secs where the dmg is finally on par, and from sec 10 on bow B is superior again because when beginning the fight u dont have to count 'load' followed by dmg, but dmg followed by 'load' which makes the load not matter if you dont need another shot — Unsigned comment by 91.182.157.15 (talk) on 8 January 2012

Indeed if you have a higher damage bow and sneak attack the fight may be over with the first shot. This assumes of course there are no other mobs in the vicinity who will hear your arrow shot and come looking for you. It also assumes you never miss and I don't know of anyone who doesn't miss--even on sneak shots. I use a legendary long bow at level 52 that does 186 damage per hit. With the stagger perk and firing nearly twice as fast as heavier bows very little gets near me if it isn't killed on the first hit. I think you will find that at higher levels of smithing most weapons are very close in damage (as a percentage) and the only real difference is range and speed. I'll take my legendary longbow to a fight with your legendary Daedric anytime. I'll load, shoot and scoot before you can even nock an arrow. With 50% stagger rate you are done for the first time I make you stumble because you'll have to start your load animation all over again after you regain your footing. By then I'll already have another arrow in your stationary body. The same will happen to any NPC I encounter. Best, Jean Valjean

Buying Weapons and Other Armors

I am level 26, with 100 smithing and 50 archery (Xbox). I have gone to every shop, but no where sells any arrows/bows past elven. I also cannot purchase ingots, such as Ebony. Does anyone know why this may be? Immediate answers would be much appreciated. Stephen, December 14, 2011

Most likely your level is too low. Check the Leveled List Info, you're not even at Glass yet. I presume shops work according to a similar list. 178.183.234.174 12:58, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

I also haven't completed any of the main quest. Yes, I haven't aquirred whirlwind sprint. Haven't felt like it on this file. Do I need to progress further to be able to buy the items?

I'm Level 78 with 100 in everything except Two-Handed, Archery, Sneak, and Destruction. I can personally say from the countless hours I've logged into my single profile (205.56.45 on my last autosave) that the way it appears to work is not actually based upon skill level at all. In a way, it does, but in the same way it does not. If you want to find the super goodyness in the wilderness and in chests, yes your skill level makes all the difference. However, it also appears that the Smithing level matters too. I can say this because the levels at which I was finding things such as, say, Glass armor and weapons at weapon shops do not seem to completely correlate with the levels they appeared in the game on enemies and in chests. For instance, One of the very first Smithing Perks I got (After the Steel Smithing, of course), was Dwarven Smithing. Instantly I found Dwarven ingots, armor, and weapons for sale at the shop. As I leveled to the point I could find Orcish weaponery and armor on enemies, I decided to go the Light Armor route instead. I got the Arcane Blacksmith, Elven Smithing, Advanced Armors, Glass Smithing, and than Dragon Armor all by the time I was Level 32 (I powered through via leather bracers, haha). So, by the time I was only in my 30s I was buying up to Glass, but no more than steel and Dwarven. I didn't actually get any more Heavy Armor Perks in my Smithing until I was past my 50s because I was working toward my Light Armor and One-Hand and Enchanting. After that, I put in the Skill Perk into Orcish Armor, now having been around Level 53. Instantly I found Orcish armor and weapons for sale. Same with Ebony, and than eventually Daedric (Although to be honest I've only found Daedric once for sale and only came across it in Master Chests I believe a total of six times: Bow, Axe, Dagger, Chest, Shield, and Peerless Alchemy Gauntlets.)... So I can say with near complete certainty that if you want it in a shop, you need the Smithing Perks, which will also help because than you can merely make it on your own. Otherwise, find a bandit hideout with a lot of Master Chests and save before you enter, run it, and if you don't like your turnout merely reload and run it again. :/ 10:32 AM 19th Dec, 2011 (CST)

I know it's not what you were asking, but ebony can be obtained fairly easily from Gloombound Mine. I'm also low level with high smithing, and I haven't seen any ebony in any of the vendors' inventories yet. 70.24.92.63 23:00, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

Bow DPS

This might be of interest to some. Based on the formula in the article. No arrow damage, skill level or perks included - as they should affect all of the bows equally. 178.183.234.174 17:04, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

It's even more complicated than that, I think.

The two issues are, the draw time scales as O(bow weight), but the damage per second scales as O(1/bow weight), so it's kind of counterintuitive. But more importantly, honing a bow at the grindstone has a really varied effect on damage.

I took my 100 enchant/100 smith/100 alchemy character, with good craft gear (no feedback-loop in the potions) and bought a bunch of raw bows. Then I honed bows at the grindstone under a Fortify Smith potion. Then I fed it to Excel.

Bow	Weight	Base (Un-honed) Damage	High-Smith Honed Damage	Base Dmg/wgt	Honed Dmg/wgt	Honed Dmg/Un-honed Dmg	Draw Time (Sec)	Shots/Sec	Base (Un-honed) Dmg/Sec	Honed Dmg/Sec
Long	5	9	42	1.80	8.40	4.67	0.60	1.67	15.00	70.00
Hunting	7	11	75	1.57	10.71	6.82	0.68	1.47	16.18	110.29
Nordic Hero	7	17	can't be honed	2.43	-	-	0.68	1.47	25.00	-
Ancient Nord	12	13	77	1.08	6.42	5.92	0.88	1.14	14.77	87.50
Imperial	8	14	47	1.75	5.88	3.36	0.72	1.39	19.44	65.28
Orcish	9	16	80	1.78	8.89	5.00	0.76	1.32	21.05	105.26
Dwarven	10	19	83	1.90	8.30	4.37	0.80	1.25	23.75	103.75
Elven	12	21	85	1.75	7.08	4.05	0.88	1.14	23.86	96.59
Glass	14	24	88	1.71	6.29	3.67	0.96	1.04	25.00	91.67
Ebony	16	27	91	1.69	5.69	3.37	1.04	0.96	25.96	87.50
Daedric	18	30	94	1.67	5.22	3.13	1.12	0.89	26.79	83.93

So a few things to note here:

• My best bow is actually a hunting bow right now. Dwarven and orchish bows are also strong.
  • It's important to note though that this all assumes you start cocking the bow at exactly the right time, every time. In that way, heavier bows are better, because as a player, you almost never immediately re-cock the bow. We're talking tenths of seconds here.
• But un-honed, the best bow is daedric.
• Look at that "Honed Dmg/Un-honed Dmg" column - it's all over the place. For some reason, with high smith, if you hone a hunting bow, it becomes almost like a low-end metal bow, but much faster! The dmg per weight goes through the roof. And then long bows and imperial bows barely even improve. I don't get why, exactly, but there it is.
• Finally, I had no idea how amazing Nordic Hero bows are. Almost double the dmg per weight than most everything else. It's a shame they can't be honed.

68.183.114.39 01:35, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

Keep in mind the draw time doesn't include the time taken to place an arrow on the bow and recoil--these add about 1s to the minimum shot time. This favors the heavier bows more. --Evil4Zerggin 02:19, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

Oh, hmm. I used the formula on the main page. I assumed that's what the 0.4s is for? Interesting. Anyhow, yeah, a bow that's faster but lower damage suffers from lost damage opportunities, but then it also means you get a shot off a little quicker sometimes. I think all you can really say is that, if you have a character like mine, you should consider hunting, dwarven, and orcish bows along with the daedric one. Give 'em all a shot. 68.183.114.39 02:41, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

FWIW, the first link here does include recoil, but doesn't include placing arrow on the bow animation. Here is the actual table updated with Karliah's M16 unique bows. If anyone can tell just how long the arrow placing animation is I would add it, but I doubt it would change the DPS much. 178.183.217.162 06:14, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

Wow - just checked this out in-game, and the difference between a long bow and a daedric bow is mind-blowing. Characters with low archery skill can definitely benefit from the draw time on the long bow in terms of enchantment damage. Hunting bow just rules though - between decent archery skill, some +bow damage armor, use of a +25/+27% 4 piece smithing suit, and a store-bought Blacksmith's Potion of 20%, all it took was a leather strip to get the hunting bow to almost 200 damage, while a deadric bow improved under the same circumstances is doing just under 300. This is good news for my hunter character. I was expecting him to be kind of weak mid-game with his wooden bow.. lol 99.236.27.145 09:18, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

Wait a minute, enchantments aside, does this mean the Bow of the Hunt is better than a daedric bow? 99.236.27.145 09:35, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

I don't see a forsworn bow in the data D: would you mind submitting the data for that bow as well ◕ω◕

A Forsworn bow is just like a dwarven bow, but one pound heavier. Therefore it's slower. So, never use a Forsworn bow if you have access to a dwarven bow, 'cause a dwarven bow will always be better. 68.183.114.39 07:29, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

The effective range of the bows offsets the rate of fire benefits pretty drastically at a surprisingly short range. If somebody could figure out a reasonably reliable way to collect data on the distance the bows are actually useful at it would be nice to have it next to this data. I was psyched to see the hunting bow in fully improved glory, but all the arrows fell short. Had to go back to daedric to hit anything outside of short range. Orcish bow might do better though. Hunting for orichalcum now.. 99.236.27.145 07:56, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

Effective range? I was unaware that heavier bows shot further, do you have any data gathered to substanitate your claim? — Unsigned comment by 76.84.148.87 (talk) at 01:00 on December 24, 2011

Erm, according to the bow draw formula, there's a fixed 0.4 nock time and 0.6 recoil time in addition to the 0.6-1.12 seconds of draw time. You can't fire 1.6 arrows/sec with any bow, since it takes 1s for the recoil and nock. This would make daedric much better than lighter bows. Adding an extra second to the draw time makes the DPS of honed daedric and hunting bows approximately the same (44 dps). — Unsigned comment by 92.27.43.95 (talk) at 12:06 on January 3, 2012

Okay, final version of the bow DPS table (I hope). Draw time now includes the Quick Shot perk. 178.183.241.136 21:13, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

None of the analysis done here seems to take into consideration how base damage actually factors into displayed damage of a weapon. Skill level, perk damage and fortification of skill enchantments do not affect all bows equally. It's proportional to the base damage and can result in differences in displayed damage easily exceeding 50 points between 2 types of honed bows. As a result these analyses have very limited practical value.--DagmarH 19:06, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

I suspect that the reason Hunting Bow outperforms almost everything else is that the Hunting Bow improves with the Steel Smithing perk whereas Nord Hero, Imperial, etc. don't. For this reason, it's probably worth evaluating the Forsworn Bow, which isn't on your chart but which does improve with Steel. — Unsigned comment by 184.34.16.36 (talk) at 21:12 on January 21, 2012

Missing from this debate is the perk cost ratio that is required to get the improvements on these bows. It requires a minimum of 5 perk points to get to Daedric. It requires none to get the maximum out of Longbow and one point in steel for Hunting. If I plug all 5 points into archery damage perk then I'm doing 22.16 dps (according to the updated damage sheet). That's more than the 20.258 that we'll get with hunting bow (plus steel perk) and only .23 less than Karliah's bow. Karliah's Bow also requires 5 points because it's already enchanted so in order to hone it you need Arcane Blacksmith. I don't consider Karliah's better though because you can't enchant it. That means Longbow will be more useful and adaptable to your purposes and much more powerful once you get the extra effect perk for Enchanting (not to mention that as a bow user I never use heavy armor and therefore heavy armor perks are less useful than light armor perks).

So by these calculations I will get higher damage with a long bow to use against lower level NPC's (Because I'll get to that high damage with fewer levels). For the money, accessibility, time to acquire, and perk cost the Longbow is the best bow. Jean Valjean

BUG Bashing can cause max BOW damage without using up arrows

This is a very intricate bug and therefore I shall make a list to help explain it in full detail.

Fairly straight forward, so allow me to explain. When firing off an arrow, if immediately after the shot you bash (About just over a one second window), you can cause the bow's (Not arrow's) damage in a "melee" strike, rather than loading another arrow. The way this works best is to be in close range (Close enough to use a one-handed weapon) and fire off a shot, be it into the enemy or merely into the air / ground / object. Whether it hits or misses does not matter. After firing the arrow, immediately follow through with a bash and you will cause the same damage (Minus the arrow's damage) once more, without using an arrow or spending the time notching the arrow for fire. This is a really useful trick when surrounded and cornered, when low on arrows, or when you don't exactly have time to reach for a new weapon. Additionally, I've tested it with many bows on the Xbox 360 with an array of different Perk setups (I had around seven points saved up to do this with).

Archery Perks Confirmed or Denied:

• Overdraw (1, 2, 3, 4, 5/5): Yes, more points in Overdraw will cause more bashing damage under this bug, because you cause more base damage with the bow.
• Critical Shot (1, 2, 3/3): Yes, you can come out with critical hits of up to 20% that they do 50% more damage. So for every bash, you have a one in five chance that you will do an extra 50% damage. Whereas my Ebony Legendary Bow does 189 damage, I have a one in five chance to do roughly 253.5 damage (189 + 64.5).
• Ranger: Yes, this is extremely helpful as you can now move faster with the bow. When the arrow is not notched, speed is not a factor, but with the arrow notched this will allow the player to close a gap quicker to achieve this bug easier over a greater distance.
• Hunter's Discipline: Technically, yes, and no. You will recover your arrows, and twice as much. However, you technically also didn't fire an arrow. So you will recover the arrows you did fire off, but you won't "duplicate" your arrows under the bug.
• Bullseye: Yes, under these pretenses the player does have the 15% chance to paralyze the target, just as it would have been had the shot been notched and fired.
• Eagle Eye: Sadly, yes this will cause you to zoom in which is an annoyance until you get...
• Steady Hands (1, 2/2): Which will cause your time around you to slow down. On the highest sensitivity setting, during this 25% or 50% slowed time, you can fire a shot at a target and immediately trigger the bash button, which happens to be the same as the zoom button (On the 360 at least). This causes time to slow down as you draw your arm back to bash, allowing instead of only a one to two second reaction to become a four or five second reaction time. Very useful when dealing with multiple enemies in front of you or targets that are fleeing, but takes practice to get the hang of using (Took me only a few minutes to get the hang of...)
• Power Shot: Yes, and no. Bashing with the bow does cause staggering anyway, as that is the point of it. But under the Power Shot, an arrow can cause all but the largest opponents to stagger 50% of the time. Under this bug however, the game believes you are firing another shot. So you have the staggering from the strike, but also additional staggering 50% of the time from the "shot", causing them to take slightly more time to recover. Very useful, in my opinion, as it allows time for another shot followed by another "bash". Wash, rinse, and repeat and you can fell numerous targets in no time.
• Quick Shot: No, technically this does not have a factor as you are not drawing an arrow. Quick Shot does not affect the bashing speed and therefore does not affect this bug.

Blocking Perks Confirmed or Denied:

• Power Bash: No. This is not a shield and therefore does not count for the requirements of this Perk.
• Deadly Bash: Yes, and no. If bashing normally with the bow, you do in fact still cause five times the bashing damage (Which is still very minimum at best). However, under this bug, the game thinks you are firing off an arrow, not bashing, even though you are "firing off the arrow" under the bashing sequence, and therefore Deadly Bash is not activated. In other words, where Deadly Bash will under normal circumstances grant you the 5x damage, under the use of this bug it does not. (I don't cause almost 1,000 damage with the Ebony Legendary Bow. That's how I know.)
• Disarming Bash: No. It's not a shield and you are not Power Bashing.
• All others: No, it is a bow, not a shield.

Enchantment Conditions Confirmed or Denied:

• Enchanted Bows? Yes. Having a bow enchanted will cause the enchantment to carry over if the bug is successfully exploited. When bashing normally with an enchanted bow, it is factored in as a bash and not a strike, therefore the enchantment does not follow through. But under the pretenses of this bug, it is factored as a strike and the enchantment carries. Tested and confirmed with an Ebony Bow of Winter, where when bashing the charge is not depleted and the target does not show the signs of frost damage (freezing over in the light icy blue), but when exploiting the bug the charge is depleted and the target takes frost damage.

Sneak Perks Confirmed or Denied:

• Backstab: No. It's not a One-Handed weapon.
• Deadly Aim: Yes, it qualifies as being shot and therefore gives the x3 damage. Otherwise, yes you are granted the normal x2 damage.
• Assassin's Blade: No. It's not a dagger. Figured I'd do this too, since I did Backstab.

Gaining Experience?

• Yes. When bashing on normal circumstances, it causes your Block skill to increase, under this bug I've found that the Archery skill increases. Of course, I've also had the instances where bashing with the bow causes the Archery skill to increase regardless, so I'm not sure if this is worth mentioning past the value of stating a hypothesis...

One-Hand and Two-Handed Perks Confirmed or Denied: Really feel as though I should not be adding this, but since you are technically bashing with the bow in one hand and technically using the bow in two hands, I felt I should. Just to finish up.

• Anything One-Hand Related: No. This is not a sword, war axe, or mace. There is no advantage to having any Perks in this when exploiting the bug.
• Anything Two-Hand Related: Ditto. It's not a greatsword, greataxe, or warhammer. There is no advantage to having any Perks in this when exploiting the bug.

All information finished at 23:28 18th Dec, 2011 (CST) (Unregistered user: Cory Haugen).

Revised information: Added Hunter's Discipline at 10:16 AM 19th Dec, 2011 (CST) (Unregistered user: Cory Haugen).

Arrow Drop

It seems that lighter bows with their shorter draw time may actually affect the propulsion of the arrow. That is, I've been using a Daedric bow on my main character for a while and it seemed that, at extreme ranges, placing the cursor straight on the torso of a humanoid object will guarantee a hit. However, starting a new game last night, I found that hunting bows will cause arrows to drop slightly over long distances, similar to how non-fully drawn arrows will drop on heavier bows. I first noticed this when I was trying to shoot at bandits on the Valtheim Towers bridge. I had to aim at least 2 millimeters over their heads to hit (my cursor was entirely not on the bandits at all). At the very top of the south-side tower was a bandit, and though I couldn't even see him, I aimed a little bit above his platform and was able to score a kill hit. The arrow had to have traveled almost horizontally to hit because it knocked the rag doll body clear of the tower.

I don't know if this phenomenon is unique to the hunting bow, but can anyone test this with other bows and see if there's a correlation between bow weight and shot trajectory?

In my opinion, the hunting bow's drop is much more realistic in terms of physics and I'm definitely considering making it my primary bow this playthrough. --76.84.148.87 06:41, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

Edit - Yes, it does make a difference. It's quite a lot actually, about a metre or two of extra drop at medium range. It seems the heavier the bow, the less of the drop, which makes sense in the form of 'more damage = faster speed = less drop'. This was tested with a Daedric, Elven and Hunting bow.

It seems Bethesda really did think about the bow physics this game, with a trade-off of drop to power to draw speed. 78.145.85.186 20:58, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

Arrows are considered what "type" of damage?

I know in Oblivion when a player used the Enchantment: "Reflect Damage" and put it on Armor and the like, only physical (Animal / Weapons) damage was reflected. Not Magical and not Arrows. There was also the Enchantment: "Reflect Magic", which reflected Magic (duh), but not Arrows. I know because I exploited a character and gave him 130% of both and literally walked around letting enemies kill themselves by hitting me. Strangely though, the only thing (Other than falls [Had 100% resist Poison too]) that could kill me were Arrows. So, now I am curious... For the sake of Skyrim, I know there is the Heavy Armor Perk, "Reflect Blows", which has a chance to reflect damage. But it doesn't reflect "Arrow damage", does it? Which is the point of this post... What exactly TYPE of damage do Arrows cause, if it's not "Magic" or "Physical"? 12:07 AM 7, Jan 2012 (CST).

Another benefit of heavy bows/longer draw time?

The ability to arch your arrows over terrain when you can't shoot directly at an enemy? i find it pretty handy, whenever a dragon pops up i can hide behind a boulder while it breathes fire/ice, and shoot arrows over the boulder and hit him while he cant hit me (the whole point of archery really) --67.142.130.15 00:11, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

Hunter's Discipline and recovery rate

Looking at the game data with SkyEdit seems to indicate that you can recover 33% of your arrows without the perk and 66% with the perk. Maybe this should be added somewhere. --Killfetzer 10:51, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

Conjured bows; DPS, utility, possible problems

DPS: For a non-smiting focused magic/archery character, how does later game DPS of the conjured bow (with various arrows) fair against other bows that one can enchant with various enchants? When if ever (assuming low/no smithing improvements) and besides when 00M is it better to use a standard enchanted bow. Since I now have mystic binding perk, even though my archery is low, I'm still doing excellent damage with the bow especially when compared with my destruction magic

Utility: 1)filling soul gems with perk(esp black star) (2)Conserving ammo (by using conjured arrows) (3) zero weight for the bow! (4)Dispel/turn?(5)the arrows glow and stay where you leave them, making it easy to mark a trail

Possible Problems: 1)Noise from conjuring, may draw more attention while sneaking than equipping a bow. 2)Mana cost, especially when switching to other spells & back, you'll have to reconjure.

Other questions! Speed of bow Vs normal bows? Equip time in terms of DPS lost? Is it worth getting the Oblivion Binding perk, or will it be better to just spend the points in archery? — Unsigned comment by 68.83.205.115 (talk) at 21:39 on January 19, 2012

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