User talk:Chaos Monkey

Say HelloEdit

This is my talk page, I'm having trouble logging into my account, but say hi anyway! 67.142.130.18 23:37, 3 March 2007 (EST)

Hi, and thanks for the cookie :) I don't have any new ideas about what's going on with your login, though... I hope we can get it figured out! --Nephele 00:04, 4 March 2007 (EST)

TestEdit

This is a test to find out the cause of my IP address changing. --67.142.130.19 23:34, 5 March 2007 (EST)

rebooting dosen't cause it. --67.142.130.19 23:36, 5 March 2007 (EST)

? --67.142.130.19 23:37, 5 March 2007 (EST) turning off my wireless dosen't cause it ether, it must be magic. --67.142.130.19 23:40, 5 March 2007 (EST)

Could you try maybe making a new account? Maybe something got fubared up on the server-end of things. If you create a new account and that works fine, we can probably arrange to have this one deleted and rename the new one so that you can keep this nickname. (Theoretically that's possible, though I don't think it's been tried yet.) Anyhow, just in case it doesn't work, choose a nickname you won't mind being stuck with if we can't change it. (I'd like to know if it works myself, because I've been stuck with "TheReal" on the beginning of my nickname for nine months now due to a stupid mistake I made forgetting my password, and thinking somebody was impersonating me...) --TheRealLurlock ^Talk 23:50, 5 March 2007 (EST)

I tried that a couple days ago, it didn't work. --67.142.130.19 23:53, 5 March 2007 (EST)

test --67.142.130.17 14:55, 6 March 2007 (EST)

Perhaps it changes once a day? 67.142.130.17 14:56, 6 March 2007 (EST)

Look, your ISP is HughesNet (formerly DirecWAY), right? If their system works like most others, you'll have some device that makes the actual contact with the ISP (HughesNet is a satellite service, I think), which is connected to your computer in turn either by a cable or a wireless connection. When your computer first attempts to access the internet, this device (ADSL Modem, Cable modem, satellite modem, whatever) relays the call to the ISP and you are allocated a dynamic IP from their pool of available IPs (67.142.0.0-67.143.255.255 for HughesNet), and you will keep that IP for as long as the modem stays connected to the ISP - but usually no longer than 24 hours. How long the modem maintains the connection depends on its settings and on what you do. Usually such modems cut the connection (and thereby free up the allocated IP), if the computer doesn't make any internet call for a set time, say 10 minutes. If you cut the wireless connection between computer and modem, or even restart the computer, the modem still maintains its connection to the ISP, and you will still have the same allocated IP, if you start using the internet again within the set time limit.

If you let the time limit expire, so that the modem cuts the connection, and then re-connect, you will usually be allocated a different IP from the pool. The connection is usually also reset after 24 hours from the ISP's side, if you remain online the entire time.

With some variations between ISPs, that's how it works for most people using modern broadband connections. Permanently allocated IPs are a rarity for home users. I don't have one, and chances are, neither have most others here. Surely the accounts here are not in any way tied to IPs, or they wouldn't work. -- JustTheBast 15:36, 6 March 2007 (EST)

That explains a lot, thanks :). --67.142.130.17 15:40, 6 March 2007 (EST)

Just to confirm, I do not have a static IP at home, and I have no problems with it remembering my account here or at work (where I am on a static IP.) Jadrax 15:52, 6 March 2007 (EST)

Yup. You really can't tie accounts to an IP, except in very special circumstances, because few people have truly static IPs. Normally you'd do it via cookies, and in looking at my current cookies I see that this site sets four of them to keep track of your login status.

uesp_net_wiki5_session
uesp_net_wiki5Token
uesp_net_wiki5UserID
uesp_net_wiki5UserName

If you cannot log in, or are immediately logged out again, as soon as you navigate to a new page, the first thing I'd check is whether anything is preventing these cookies from being sent back to the server (e.g. a browser setting or perhaps an overeager firewall). Blocking these cookies would be the equivalent of throwing away your nametag that allows you to be at a party, as soon as you're handed it. -- JustTheBast 16:22, 6 March 2007 (EST)

I made it so my firewall dosen't mess with cookies but I still have the problem. I have all four of those plus uesp_net_wiki5LoggedOut, _utma, _utmc, _utmz, and _utmb. --67.142.130.17 16:34, 6 March 2007 (EST)

Since I have no idea of the internal workings of MediaWiki, what it does with those cookies, and what it needs, I really can't help any further than that. A technical administrator for this site is what you need. In general I'd make sure that these cookies are not only stored on your computer but actually get sent back to the server correctly. After all, it's not enough to have and ID, you also have to show it to get in, so to speak. Lots of things can get in the way, apart from a firewall. -- JustTheBast 16:46, 6 March 2007 (EST)

You could try deleting the cookie uesp_net_wiki5LoggedOut; it should disappear pretty quickly after you log in, and from how my browser behaves it seems that uesp_net_wiki5UserName takes precedence (i.e., when I have both cookies set, my browser keeps me logged in). But it's not needed once you're logged in and could theoretically confuse your browser. See whether deleting it makes a difference, and perhaps see whether it reappears for some reason.

Also if you can see details about your cookies, you could quickly check that uesp_net_wiki5UserName has your correct username listed as its contents. --Nephele 17:30, 6 March 2007 (EST)

Does + mean a space? I created another account a couple of days ago (ChaosMonkey instead of Chaos Monkey). It didn't work, it hasn't reappeared but i deleted it when i wasn't logged in (for what little time i can be logged in). afterwards i tried logging in. --67.142.130.17 17:43, 6 March 2007 (EST)

Yes, a + sign probably is used instead of a space (although since my user name doesn't have a space in it I can't be sure). I just googled this issue, and while most of the info that I've found looks similar to what we've already checked, you may want to read through these articles just to be sure that we didn't overlook anything:

Wikipedia Help:Logging_in
Google cookies
Wikipedia Technical FAQ
Wikimedia Help:Logging_in (some of this is on how to set up the server, i.e. UESP's computer, but there's also some on client computer issues)

One point that was mentioned in those articles is to make sure that your computer's date and time are set properly. --Nephele 18:04, 6 March 2007 (EST)

OK, I think I actually just found a reference that explains what's going on here, since it explicitly mentions that this problem occurs with HughesNet/DirecPC connections.

Wikipedia village pump, look at the second-last bullet in the big "FAQ" box at the top of the page (or search on "automatically logged").

But the solution they propose won't work for UESP, because I'm pretty sure we don't have a secure server option. I'll keep rummaging around, but thought I'd first give this update. --Nephele 18:14, 6 March 2007 (EST)

I think you found the problem. I have a wikipedia account and i have the same problem on there. I tried the secure server option and it worked! Now we need to find a solution for here --67.142.130.17 18:37, 6 March 2007 (EST)

Okay, so your ISP has a transparent proxy that caches pages stupidly and thus prevents your HTTP-requests with the cookies from ever reaching the server. Pages transferred over secure connections are not cached, so that bypasses the problem - only uesp.net does not accept secure connections. The capability usually costs extra, so why buy it, unless you actually need secure lines?

The ideal solution would be to find a way to force the proxy to bypass its cache, but transparent proxies, being primarily for the benefit of the ISP and not the user, are notoriously stubborn and stupid about it. One possibility is to run a client-side script that adds a random parameter to each request, so that it is guaranteed to be unique and thus not in the proxy's cache. Whether that is feasible depends on which browser you use and the setup of your machine. I have never done it myself. -- JustTheBast 19:01, 6 March 2007 (EST)

I don't know how to do stuff like that, my brain might implode if i tried >_>. --67.142.130.17 19:09, 6 March 2007 (EST)

There is probably a ready-made add-on for use with Firefox somewhere on the net -- JustTheBast 19:16, 6 March 2007 (EST)

Unfortunately, it may be a case where knowing the problem doesn't help with finding a fix. I can't find any additional info at wikipedia, mediawiki, or wikimedia about what's going on here, or how/why they set up a secure server. I'm pretty sure UESP doesn't have any type of secure server set up, I'm guessing it's not something trivial to do, and the reality is that this problem has only affected one account so far in the history of the site. Also, the fundamental problem seems to be caused by your satellite ISP provider's configuration, rather than by UESP. So jumping through difficult, expensive hoops to find a fix on the UESP side seems unlikely. In other words, I'm basically hitting a brick wall on viable ideas for how to fix the problem. --Nephele 19:07, 6 March 2007 (EST)

I've found a add-on called Tamper Data, it lets you mess with requests. What should i look for? --67.142.130.17 22:12, 6 March 2007 (EST)

I can't say for sure whether that add-on is the right tool for the job, since I don't know it. Does it allow you to set automatic alterations to every request, or would you have to edit it by hand every time you click on a link? If it does, the first thing I'd try would be to set it up so that all requests are sent as POST requests, rather than GET. POST requests should not be cached - but then, if that transparent proxy behaved as it should, you wouldn't be in this situation in the first place, so that might not change anything. My other idea would be to add a randomised parameter to each URL, so that it looks unique to the proxy and is properly fetched from the server, rather than the cache.

You can try out the latter manually to see whether it works. To do that, you would log in first and then, instead of normally clicking on a link, copy the link address, paste it in the URL bar and add a random nonsense parameter like this:

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Special:Recentchanges?random=ahgfjbsafjhbsaf

That should hopefully cause the cache to think it is a different page from http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Special:Recentchanges and fetch it properly, passing along your cookies and thus keeping you logged in. If this works and either Tamper Data or another add-on allows you to do this automatically, you're set. -- JustTheBast 03:37, 7 March 2007 (EST)

Another possibility, this time on the server side, would be for the UESP server to include every "Don't cache this!" header and directive known to man in the reply, if the requesting IP is in the HughesNet range - and hope that the transparent proxy obeys any of them. -- JustTheBast 03:45, 7 March 2007 (EST)

It's manual, i think I'll abandon it for now. The random parameter worked once, i was able to go from the main page to recent changes. but that was the only time. perhaps because I cleared my private data.I tried searching for a add-on for randomizing but I didn't find one Also, I don't understand your last suggestion. Could you explain it to me a little bit more. --67.142.130.47 18:35, 7 March 2007 (EST)

Cookies are usually considered part of your "private data" and are cleared along with it. In any case, I didn't mean for you to actually use the wiki that way, since it's far too tedious to copy and manually adjust each link you want to follow. That was just meant as a test, whether it even works in practice.

The last suggestion is not something you can do, but the technical administrators of this server. There are certain headers that can be included in an HTTP response that are supposed to tell a cache not to store a page - but that's dependent on the correct behaviour of the caching proxy, of course. The server could be configured so that it looks at the originating IP of each incoming request and includes these headers in the response, whenever the request comes from HughesNet. This shouldn't be done with every request, because that would also keep well-behaved caches from storing pages when it actually is appropriate. -- JustTheBast 05:41, 8 March 2007 (EST)

When you say technical administrator, you mean Daveh, right? --67.142.130.12 21:25, 8 March 2007 (EST)

Well, that depends on how the site is hosted. If this site was on a shared host, even Daveh would not have full administratice access to the hardware or the HTTP server running on it, because it would be shared with other sites, which must not be affected by what he does. If the site is on an exclusive server, which I assume it is, Daveh would normally have full control, but he could also give other administrators limited or even full rights to configure the HTTP server software. -- JustTheBast 01:27, 9 March 2007 (EST)

SandboxEdit

I noticed you using the Sandbox for some tests. This is of course, perfectly fine, but did you know you can save yourself from making lots of edits just by using the Show Preview button down at the bottom? There's only a few types of edits that won't show up in a Preview. (Mostly involving templates and transclusions.) Almost anything else will show up fine, and not clutter the Special:Recent Changes page up with extraneous edits. (It's cluttered up enough as it is today from me fixing hundreds of links to the wrong pages...) --TheRealLurlock ^Talk 19:03, 6 March 2007 (EST)

Sorry about that, I'll use preview from now on. --67.142.130.17 19:11, 6 March 2007 (EST)

FYI, the main problem with the template tests you were doing in the sandbox earlier is that you only had one { symbol before "NPC Summary"; you need to have two, i.e. {{NPC Summary. And you don't need any of the lines with "#" symbols in them, those are all just comments (and the wiki tries to change all the "#" symbols into numbers, even in a long string, which is why the sandbox ending up looking so strange). I'll try to put something together for the Help:Templates page... I'd always been imagining that needed to explain how to create a template, but you're right that just some explanations of how to use a template are needed (and that's a lot easier than explaining how to create one). --Nephele 22:46, 11 March 2007 (EDT)

Thanks, now I can help with the NPC pages. --67.142.130.39 23:00, 11 March 2007 (EDT)

The easiest way to figure out how to use a template is to look at another page that uses it, and just copy/paste, and change the details. Luckily, in the case of the NPC Summary template, Nephele has already formatted the contents for the templates in her sandbox, which saves you from having to do a lot of the work. Just find the NPC you're looking for, follow the directions, and copy/paste. Creating your own templates is a far more complicated matter, one which I've only superficially delved into myself. Nephele seems to be our resident expert on the subject, though Aristeo also knows a thing or two if you can still get his attention these days. I know just enough to be able to screw things up when I try. (And occasionally I stumble upon the correct way after much trial and error.) The biggest problem with template editing is that you can't generally see the results until after you save the page, as it's transcluded on another page. So you either work in sandboxes, or you do alot of minor tweaks until it looks good. And then even more tweaks because it doesn't look good on every page. And then even more tweaks when crazy people ask you for more features. And then more tweaks to correct everything that got messed up because you added more features. And - well, you get the idea. --TheRealLurlock ^Talk 00:03, 12 March 2007 (EDT)

A FavorEdit

Could someone create User:Chaos Monkey for me? Thanks. --67.142.130.39 00:56, 12 March 2007 (EDT)

Done. I couldn't create a truly empty page, but feel free to delete the "almost empty" that I wrote on the page ;) --Nephele 01:14, 12 March 2007 (EDT)

Yay, thanks:) --67.142.130.39 01:16, 12 March 2007 (EDT)

Hey, I thought I'd help you out and create a template for your signature. You can use this instead of ~~~~. Just type {{CMsig}}~~~~~ at the end of your posts. (That's 5 ~'s, not 4, so you get just the date.) I tried to get the date-stamp to be part of the template, but I can't get it to work properly. (~'s are replaced when the template is saved, so it doesn't save in real-time.) If somebody knows the proper way to do that, please fix it. --TheRealLurlock ^Talk 09:56, 12 March 2007 (EDT)

OK, built-in time stamp done. But for it to work, the template has to be substituted (which probably is the best thing for this template any way). Which means you have to type {{subst:CMsig}}: no ~'s anymore, but instead you have to type that subst: part all the time. The advantage of using subst (besides that fact that's it's necessary to make the timestamp not look like ugly code) is that afterwards no one knows that you used the template to sign your name: it looks just like anyone else's signature on the talk page. --Nephele 12:21, 12 March 2007 (EDT)

Wow, you guys rock. Thanks :) -- Chaos Monkey ^Talk 15:29, 12 March 2007 (EDT)

It's My BirthdayEdit

Yay? -- Chaos Monkey ^Talk 14:56, 13 March 2007 (EDT)

Absolutely. Yay, indeed.

Happy birthday! ^_^ -- JustTheBast 14:52, 13 March 2007 (EDT)

Yay! -- Chaos Monkey ^Talk 14:56, 13 March 2007 (EDT)

I gave you your present yesterday. Looks like you're making good use of it. --TheRealLurlock ^Talk 16:05, 13 March 2007 (EDT)

Neat, my birthday was yesterday. Happy birthday. --Werdnanoslen^Talk 16:17, 13 March 2007 (EDT)

Just went to see 300, it was awesome. -- Chaos Monkey ^Talk 14:56, 13 March 2007 (EDT)

So did I! My husband and I saw it at the IMAX. It was great! "Tonight, we dine in HELL!!!"

By the way, thanks for the cookie! It's awesome to be noticed by other editors. --GuildKnight | Talk (contribs) 17:07, 18 March 2007 (EDT)

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