Oblivion talk:Easter Eggs/Archive 1

This is an archive of past Oblivion talk:Easter Eggs discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page, except for maintenance such as updating links.

Misc Comments

I meet M'aiq the Liar at the Leyawiin gates one evening, he literally disappeared before my eyes. --Trithemius 06:27, 30 March 2006 (EST)

Moved the Console Debug info to the Console page. Endareth 23:32, 10 April 2006 (EDT)

"fable"

Could M'aiq's reference about "a good fable" possibly be a reference to the game Fable?

Sounds logical, there have been many comparison threads on the subject. Also, "...a good fable. M'aiq has yet to find one..." sounds like they don't like Fable much. :) Garrett 07:21, 17 April 2006 (EDT)

It is a reference to the forums where people said Oblivion would be like the game Fable. Translated, M'aiq is saying that Oblivion is nothing like the game Fable.

Cyrus??!

Why is Cyrus an easter egg? Very fague; can someone elaborate on this? Aristeo 00:48, 24 April 2006 (EDT)

Cyrus was the name of the main character of TES: Redguard. However I think it's safe to say that they are not the same person as Redguard took place over 400 years earlier at the end of the second era. - Cloud Tiamat

Alright. I added what you told me to the Cyrus easter egg, then moved him to the minor easter egg section. Thanks for the help! --Aristeo 15:37, 25 April 2006 (EDT)

Fishy stick!!!

Should the Fishy Stick Phenomenon have its own article? The great users of the community deserve to know the history behind the fishy stick, and I would be glad to tell them everything. --Aristeo 00:26, 27 April 2006 (EDT)

It has been done: General:Fishy Stick. --Aristeo 02:30, 7 May 2006 (EDT)

Kvatch

I don't know German well enough to accurately describe it. Someone with good knowledge of German origin please explain why you'd mutter the name of the city once you arrive there for the first time after being sent from Weynon Priory to retrieve Martin :)

Well, I know it's not a swear word. I had to learn that the hard way. My best guess is that "Kvatch" is a semi-popular German name. --Aristeo 13:43, 27 April 2006 (EDT)

The actual word is Quatsch (pronounced kvatch :), and you won't find it in obscenity dictionaries, because it's not a vulgar, "hard" swearword. Means a lie, rubbish, nonsense but I think I heard it in context of general curse in case of failure or unexpected difficulty, like "drat" in english.

That's appropriate, lol.. --Aristeo 20:18, 28 April 2006 (EDT)

It's not a swear word. I might translate it as "bah humbug". :D The name of Kvatch for the city made me laugh back when I first noticed it, because I immediately remembered (having studied German for a full year :P) the German word of Quatsch. --FMan 18:58, 1 May 2006 (EDT)

Actually, the word "Quatsch" in German is pronounced "Quash," not kvatch. Although I believe that there is a word in German similar to the word Kvatch, perhaps pronounced as such, I do not know what it is. I could be wrong, though, but I know that a "qu" does not make a "kv" sound- that would be "qw" or "kw," as "W" makes a "V" sound. I'll have to ask my German teacher (or should I say "mein Deutscher Lehrer? Hehehe...) about that word though- it might be an exception. Naeo 15:18, 26 November 2006 (EST)

And Then There Were None

Are you certain that the quest Whodunit was based off of the Agatha Christy book? Sure, it did have some similarities, but was it actually based off the book? How did you find this information? --Aristeo 13:15, 29 April 2006 (EDT)

I placed a citation needed tag on that entry. =) --Aristeo 19:10, 14 May 2006 (EDT)

Go to wikipedia and type in " and then there were none" it's a book and a darn good one at that!!!

--Paradox--

Questionable editing

I am unhappy the information I added earlier has been removed. --FMan 18:52, 1 May 2006 (EDT)

What was removed? --Aristeo 02:33, 7 May 2006 (EDT)

Frodo has Failed Agamir has the one ring

When playing the quest "Unfriendly Competition" I found that one of the people in Macrabe Menifest's name was Oford Gabbins-which is a anagram for Frodo's name, more or less. And also he has a "gold ring with inscription(Cursed???)" aparently on his person is an bunch of Lotr referenced items. (his body doesn't exist ingame. Could some experienced editor add this in as an easter egg or a note for the quest, which ever is appropriate.

• Added this--Fade 17:06, 27 June 2006 (EDT).

Easter egg???

"ESE across the bay from Bravil is an unmarked bridge. If you go underneath, you'll find the remains of a troll that didn't quite make it as a bridge troll."

Is this really an easter egg? I mean, I found a lot of death goblins now and then who had been killed by an imperial guard. Maby this was just a common troll who fell to his dead right before someone found this?

• Have you searched its inventory? You will find a note which has some badly spelled writing on it stating that this troll was depressed and decided to kill itself. Sure it's an easter egg. --Sigaven 17:51, 23 July 2006 (EDT)

Has this been added yet? The suicidal Troll is a good easter egg.T0mm0 13:21, 6 November 2006 (EST)

Also its listed as an easter egg that the corrupt guard named ulrich is "obviously a referance to sir ulrich von lichtenstein in "A Knights Tale" The name Ulrich is fairly common in germanic regions and they share no character similaritys, how is this a referance at all, let alone an obvious one? --MastaC 23:56, 28 September 2006 (EDT)

Maybe we should use a more accurate description of the location (because it is next to the "mouth of the panther"?

M'aiq renovation

I added some stuff to the M'aiq section that explains the origin of the quotes, if someone has more information about them than me feel free to edit.

Weres this edit at? What page?

About burnt out 'all things alchemical'

More likely, this is just reusage of an art asset and not an intentional little easter egg

Well it might be an easter egg, but it surely ain't an unfinished quest.

Agatha Christie refrence

I am removing the tag requesting a citation that Whodunit? is based off And Then There Were None. Todd Howard stated in a recent interview that the quest was indeed to be seen as "kind of an Agatha Christie, kill-everybody type of thing" when asked about his favorite quests. I think that's proof enough that similarities were intentional.

Twins

Anybody else notice an abundance of twins? Baenlin and Caenlin in Bruma, Caernlorn and Maernlorn in Anvil, Guilbert and Reynald Jemaine in Chorrol/Cheydinhal. Are there others as well? Just seemed like more than a coincidence when I noticed these few. Was considering the possibility that there might intentionally be a pair in every city. In which case, it would bear mentionning... --TheRealLurlock 00:19, 15 July 2006 (EDT)

Caenlin is actually Baenlin's nephew. But no, I don't think there are any others. --NightStryke 00:28, 18 February 2007 (EST)

Janus Hassildor

hi, i think it is not a coincidence that the Count's first name refers to Janus, the two-faced roman god of the begginings, endings and doors. [1]

It possibly reffers to the the count's two lifes.

Janus is an extremely common Romanian name, especially in the carpathian part of Romania, called Transylvania. Any more questions? :) --Vook 09:54, 19 August 2006 (EDT)

Does anyone find it a coincidence that Janus Hassildor is a vampire, that Janus is a name from Romania, and the story of Count Dracula is based in Transylvania? Just a thought. Tentacle 13:43, 13 April 2007 (EDT)

Not really. Janus is a common name in many countries with Latin-based languages, since it was the name of a Roman god. Now the fact that Hassildor is a vampire and a Count, and lives in a castle on top of a large hill, and is rarely seen and often shunned by the townsfolk in Skingrad, that's certainly a Dracula reference. Only thing missing is a mob of angry peasants with torches and pitchforks. I wouldn't put too much stock in the "Janus" part of it, though. --TheRealLurlock ^Talk 14:18, 13 April 2007 (EDT)

Guess not. Interesting observation nonetheless. Tentacle 17:36, 13 April 2007 (EDT)

True to its word the name Janus is common latin name and transalates to John thus also "Janos" in Hungarian. P.S. Count Dracula was no Story he existed under the name of Vlad Blassarab aka The Prince of Walachia, a province area at time, under control of Hungarian Empire. (ShadowByte)

Something shady at The Oak and Crosier

In Chorrol if you ask people about rumors they will sometimes say that they think something shady is going on at The Oak and Crosier. If you go into the basement there the music will change to that spooky music when your in caves and ruins but nothing is in there it's just a normal basement. Apart from that there is nothing that is strange or anything. Thieves Guild members Glistel and Fathis Ules hang out at The Oak and Crosier alot but it's unlikily that as Fathis Ules isn't even there before Sins of the Father quest.

I think it's interesting enough to be added. (JamesMagenta 19:27, 3 August 2006 (EDT))

Since someone has already posted about Falanu Hlaalu's... hobby... I figure it's safe to bring up the fact that you probably shouldn't rent a bed at the oak and crosier. I pickpocketed the khajiit at the bar (don't recall her name, sorry.) and found a rather... interesting... key that opens a jewelry box in the room next to the one rented out. Honestly, I was expecting something more along the lines of a gambling den under the inn, or a hidden skooma stash... (24.131.234.13 04:56, 5 April 2007 (EDT))

I tried that and the key didn't open the box. Then when I picked the locked all I found was a few gold coins and a silver nugget. Did I do something wrong???

Eugal Belette...

...is not an "Unfinished Quest". He's just a Mythic Dawn sleeper agent like all the others that attack you after a certain point in the Main Quest. --TheRealLurlock 17:25, 16 August 2006 (EDT)

• • Yeah but he is the only one wich other NPC's make any reference about, appart from Else-God-Hater --Anselm 20:31, 16 August 2006 (EDT)

Maryland Restraunts

"Some of the shops in the Imperial city appear to be named after restaurants found in Maryland. For instance, the Main Ingredient and Three Brothers."

Well, the company's name is BETHESDA Softworks, so it is logical to assume that they are based in Bethesda, Maryland.

• Which it is, it's been noted many times :)--Sigaven 16:51, 20 August 2006 (EDT)

The Three Sisters

Regarding: There is an inn in Cheydinhal called 'The Three Sisters Inn'. There is a pub in Cowgate on Holyrood Road in Edinburgh, Scotland called 'The Three Sisters'

A google search for "The Three Sisters" returns nearly 700,000 webpages, most of which have nothing to do with the pub. Okay, yes in the game it's also an inn, which links them a little more than just by name, but unless there was evidence to suggest that the developers have a good reason for knowing about three sisters pub in edinburgh then I would put it down to coincidence.

I also expect that the pub in edinburgh is named after the three sisters of glencoe which would have nothing really to do with the game right. . .

Do other people agree/disagree? Should this be removed? --Mr Snidesmin 22:38, 29 August 2006 (EDT)

Yeah, not an Easter Egg, I think. There's also a Two Sisters in Leyawiin, and a Three Brothers in the Imperial City. None of them is a reference to anything, I'd say. Just means that there are three sisters who run the place. --TheRealLurlock 14:58, 29 August 2006 (EDT)

I'm going to wait a day, and if there are no major objections I'll remove this line - unless someone else gets there first! :O)

Cleaned Up / October 2nd

Alright, I just completed a thorough cleaning of the Easter Eggs page, rewriting most entries to rid them of poor grammar, phrasing, and first-person commentary; however, in revamping the page's content I also ran across some erroneous eggs, which were similarly removed. In order to prevent their reposting, I am writing a list of those I removed herein, and providing my reasons for doing so. If you feel an easter egg was removed without due cause, feel free to post your comments herein, and reasons a reinstatement of the easter egg should be made.

• In the Colovian Highlands, east of the start of the River Brena, halfway to Fort Ontus, there is a wayshrine to Stendarr. Just to the south is a skeleton next to a book, chest and sack. The loot is nothing special, but the book, The Posting of the Hunt, is one of only 3 copies you can find in Cyrodiil.
• REASON: Numerous books were included from Bloodmoon, not the least of which is The Posting of the Hunt. Furthermore, the rarity of a book does not constitute an "easter egg", merely a difficult to obtain item.

• In Skingrad there is a man named Nerastarel who lives directly in front of rosethorn hall. Sadly, his house is abandoned and there is nobody by that name in the game. His house is a different story. Inside, you will get the spooky music and find monsters from zombies and skeletons to wraiths and liches. Perhaps he was killed by a necromancer, or maybe he was a necromancer and fled. We'll never know.
• REASON: This note I removed solely as I was unable to read and understand such, and thus, could not rephrase it to be comprehensible. "...there is a man named Nerastarel who lives directly in front of rosethorn hall..." and "...there is nobody by that name in the game..." rather cancel one another out. If this was a mere observation from the CS, then it must be understood that not every Oblivion player has access to such (and I am not strictly referring to the inability XBOX 360 players have to use it, but many PC users do not download/desire to download it), and thus, is not truly an easter egg, having no presence in the final game. If otherwise (that is, not a CS item), the original author will need to step forward and reword such so that the casual reader can make sense of what said person was attempting to state.
  • I'm not sure if it's an easter egg, an unfinished quest, or what, but it's not only found in the CS. There is a house in Skingrad, across from Rosethorn Hall, which is owned by Nerastarel. If you enter the house it appears to be long-abandoned and in shambles (despite the fact that it looks fine from the outside) and has several undead in it. In addition, there is no one in the game by the name of Nerastarel, only his house. (The tree in his back yard is also dead and toppled, though I'm not sure that really means anything.) Make of it what you will, but it's definitely something unusual. --NightStryke 15:35, 18 February 2007 (EST)

• Many NPCs throughout Cyrodiil can be overheard discussing current news about the Nerevarine from Morrowind.
• REASON: I distinctly recall an easter egg thread on the official forums regarding this very portion of the game, which was decided - by an overwhelming majority of participants - to not be an easter egg. This conclusion was reached primarily as said content is merely back story, much like the in-game books, and was intended merely to allow Morrowind players a grasp of the time scale (i.e. - time has passed since the events of Morrowind, and the Nerevarine has moved on), and initiate new players into the lore.

• After you finish Sheogorath's quest involving the settlement of Border Watch, you may find a special issue of The Black Horse Courier with interview with a mage about the "weather anomaly". The interview mentions amongst others "an occasional wayward mage" "raining" from the sky, a reference to Morrowind.
• REASON: Removed after a search revealed nothing relating said comments to Morrowind, the paragraph is poorly written, and "an occasional wayward mage" "raining" makes no sense at all. What's more, the issue of the Black Horse Courier regarding the "weather anamoly" is not an easter egg, no more than any other issue describing in-game events.
  • This is the only change I disagree with. The falling mage was known as Tarhiel. (a reference to the Tar Heels, a North Carolina college basketball team, which is a rival team to the local team in Maryland, where Bethesda is located. Another Easter Egg reference to this is the sword Eltonbrand) He is found just north of Seyda Neen, and is likely one of the first things your character will see in the game after leaving town. He doesn't seem to have much mention on the site, though he probably should. All I could find was his journal. It's definitely an Easter Egg in Morrowind, and that Courier issue is distinctly a reference to this event. --TheRealLurlock 17:34, 2 October 2006 (EDT)
    • Ah, very well. If you would like to rewrite said note - obviously understanding said egg better than I, as I (again, obviously) did not even perceive it as such - to a more intelligible format, I see no reason it should not be reposted. -- Booyah boy 07:03, 3 October 2006 (EDT)
      • Hmmm, obviously nobody followed through on that thought ;) A question tonight made me realize that this easter egg had completely vanished, which had me very confused until I found this discussion. Anyway, I went ahead and restored it with some rewriting and alot of links (made much easier by the fact that since October Ratwar created a proper easter egg entry for Tarhiel in Morrowind). Someday I'll really have to meet this Tarhiel guy :) --Nephele 02:23, 15 February 2007 (EST)

• Both Antoinette and Lucien from the Dark Brotherhood are mentioned in notes as thieves in The Bloodmoon Expansion of Morrowind. I don't know if this is actually a realation but its kind of weird.
• REASON: Removed as it is wrong. Quite simply, that's it. This "easter egg" floated around for a while before being shot down by a simple comparison: that of the Bloodmoon notes, and the Oblivion character names. The note lists the female character as "Antoinette" and the male as "Lucian", whilst the Oblivion Dark Brotherhood characters are "Antoinetta" and "Lucien".

• A rare book you may come across called "The hanging Gardens" is a reference to another old movie called "The Hanging Tree".
• REASON: If you are referring to "Hanging Gardens of Wasten Coridale" and the old Gary Cooper film "The Hanging Tree", you are sorely mistaken. In fact, there is no relation between the two at all. The only real-world reference between the book and any other item that may be drawn is that and the Hanging Gardens of Babylon (one of the former Seven Wonders of the World), the true item upon which it was based (hence the name).

• The Grey Fox can also be a reference to "The Night Fox" from the "Ocean's Twelve" movie.
• REASON: Rubbish. I mean no offense, but that is the the most abstruse theory yet put forth as regards his name. Apart from the character in said movie being a thief, there is no other relation at all, not even a slight one; this is in contrast to other theories put forth (Guy Fawkes, Gray Fox, and even The Dread Pirate Roberts), all of which can draw at least two or more favorable comparisons. Again, I mean no offense, but let's not go throwing every thief type character with the word "Fox" in his name herein, simply for that. I could name at least ten others ("Fox" being a pretty common appellation for thieves, with obvious cause) off the top of my head, but I am not about to propose that the Gray Fox is representative of Renart the Fox (old folklorish hero, seen in both popular literature and movies), Zorro (which means "the fox", a nice guy who was never seen and ran around with a mask on), the Thief of Baghdad (who was known as "The Black Fox"), Shuichi Minamino of Yu Yu Hakushko (hey, he's a "kitsune", fox-like thief), the Silver Fox from Rivals of the Silver Fox (silver is kind of gray, and it's a lot older than Ocean's Twelve), or Briar Fox (yeah...) because they are just too far-fetched.

• Ulrich, the corrupt guard capitan of Cheydinhall's quest "Corruption and Conscience" seems to be named after "Sir Ulrich von Lichtenstein" the alter ego of the protagonist in the movie "A Knight's Tale".
• REASON: Are you joking? What, because his name is Ulrich and his last name begins with an "L"? My cousin is named Ulrich Jamison Moore, but he was not named after some fictional character on a teen action/drama flick. I'm afraid the name has been around a great deal longer than A Knight's Tale. What's more, apart from the first name, and the last initial, there is nothing similar between them: their personal characters and background are different (corrupt guard, commoner striving to become a true knight), their appearances are different, their names are even different, once you get past the first name (Ulrich Leland and Ulrich von Lichtenstein). Sorry, mate, but that is too much of a stretch.

• The Quest "Where Spirits have Lease" is a reference to an old movie called "Where Spirits have Lives" which is about a Native Girl taken from her family.
• REASON: Poor formatting of the sentence (using plain links instead of wiki-links; moreso, linking to non-existant pages), but, primarily, because it is utterly erroneous in every way. First, the movie is not entitled "Where Spirits have Lives", I know, I've seen it. It is called "Where the Spirit Lives", and is not about a girl "taken from her family", but about a Native American girl who struggles to retain a hold on her cultural heritage and personal beliefs when forced into a residential school. If that were not enough, even had the poster been correct in the title, the two have nothing in common. Come on, a Native American girl taken from her family...and an insane old man who wishes to become a lich?

• *The creature "Will-o-the-Wisp" is based off a similar legend.
• REASON: Yeah, so was the Minotaur, goblins, deadra (demons), the unicorn, ogres...oh, wait, everything. I fail to see how that constitutes an easter egg, and so, removed it. As I said, every creature is based off something, and we're not about to list all of them, so why list this one? If the poster was unaware that the will o' wisp was not an original creation on Bethesda's part, and thus, posted such as a "neat fact", it still hardly qualifies it as a proper easter egg.

• Adventurers: These are fairly rare encounters, but sometimes if you are exploring a cave or ruin you might meet another person who also collects loot for a living.
• REASON: There is a page dedicated to the rarity that is an Adventurer: a game feature, not an easter egg.

LASTLY, I would like to propose that the entire "Hidden Secrets" section be removed. The first notation therein (Oreyn's painting) could stay on the Easter Eggs pages in the miscellaneous section, as with the note about Bendu Olo (I moved them already), but the remainder are mere notes about rare game items (Hatred's Soul and the ammo and Calliben's Grim Retort) and a hard to find merchant (Shady Sam), none of which are easter eggs, no more than any hard to find item or merchant from Morrowind was/is.
Thoughts? -- Booyah boy 17:02, 2 October 2006 (EDT)

Spider Daedra

I deleted the following note from the main page:

• Many Spider Daedra carry spoons. A possible reference to little Miss Muffin.

The only reason Spider Daedra occasionally carry spoons is because their inventory includes "LL0LootMicroTreasure15", i.e., a 15% chance of having semi-worthless loot. This is the exact same inventory item as just about every other creature in the game, so there was no intentional developer decision to make it likely for Spider Daedra to carry spoons. --Nephele 12:01, 15 October 2006 (EDT) Aside from that, it's Little Miss Muffet.

Blind moth preists?

I recently found something from another site stating the following as one of many explanations made by the developers to hide oversights and generally provide excuses for various questions:

Why don't clothes in Morrowind have a health rating?

Clothes don't have a Health rating like armor and weapons do. Why? Well...

The tailors of Morrowind, due to the unusually harsh environments, have been forced to use unusual materials for their clothing needs. While they first experimented with a wool woven from the fur of the waste rat, this proved to be unpopular. The material, while fairly durable, stank to high heaven when wet. Additionally, the scent tended to attract other waste rats, making the garments especially unsuitable for children and the elderly.

After many years of searching the continent for a suitable material (now referred to as the Great Chafing), the intrepid craftsmen discovered the silk of the blight moth. Though not truly a blighted creature, it's coloration resembled the ash grey left by the mysterious disease infecting the land. The silk, it turned out, was incredibly resilient, pliable, and easy to work with. It also readily accepted magicks, making it a popular material for enchanters. After years of experimentation, tailors perfected the weaving of this delicate silk into thread.

Today, you'll find almost all of the clothing of Morrowind is made of this super strong blight moth silk, as it never degrades, is highly resistant to damage from the elements, and even seems to repair itself from damage. Lo, the wonders of Morrowind.

Source: Posted on the official forums by Mark "BlueDev" Nelson

could the inclusion of the moth-silk weaving priests be an easter egg refering to this?MastaC 06:57, 22 October 2006 (EDT)

It's an interesting story, and I've seen it before, but I don't think there's any relation between this and the Blind Moths. All the forts in Morrowind also had "moth" in the name - Hawkmoth, Moonmoth, Buckmoth, Firemoth, Frostmoth. Just a coincidence I think. --TheRealLurlock 23:12, 22 October 2006 (EDT)

I don't believe that tale was meant to "hide oversights" and "generally provide excuses". They didn't include it because it wasn't a worthwhile feature. The story was a joke, for people who need canonical justification for everything. Kurai-sama 14:39, April 6, 2007

War Axe of Transmogrify

[[Oblivion:]] I came across this random drop, and the name made me laugh. It's a reference to the old Calvin & Hobbs cartoons. In the cartoon it was a cardboard box which would change Calvin into other things...

No it isn't. Calvin & Hobbs didn't invent the word "Transmogrify", and there's no reason to assume that the game was referencing the strip with this item. Now, if it was the Cardboard Box of Transmogrify, you'd have a point, but I think this is just a completely unrelated coincidence. --TheRealLurlock ^Talk 15:59, 15 November 2006 (EST)

Like TheRealLurlock mentioned, Transmogrify was in the dictionary long before Calvin & Hobbs existed. Examples: The transmogrification spell in Dungeon Siege, and the Transmogrification School for Pirates in Monkey Island. Case closed, mefinks. Tentacle 16:17, 14 April 2007 (EDT)

Here is another one

I don't know if this was intentional or not, but " Um bacano" in Portuguese means "a dandy".

Irony

In the theives den plugin in the journal of the head pirate it asks the finder of the journal to take revenge on the Umbranoxs for traping him there in dunbarrow cove well the deacendent of the Umbranoxs is Corvus Umbranox aka the Gray Fox.

Corvus Umbranox is also the Count of Anvil, and the husband of Countess Millona Umbranox. Since Anvil is close to Dunbarrow Cove, this is hardly surprising, and I wouldn't call it ironic, or an Easter Egg. --TheRealLurlock ^Talk 17:38, 1 December 2006 (EST)

Nirn root, giant pieces

I was playing today and located 2 giant nirn roots a hop, skip, and a jump away from Shardrock. I was having fun murdering some bear cubs when I saw them near the pond NW of the house.

Maybe 20 feet away...maybe 15 from the house.

Pittsburgh Pirate?

In the Dunbarrow Cove mod, one of the pirates who joins your crew is an Argonian named "Yinz'r". "Yinzer" is a slang term for a native of Pittsburgh. ("Yinz" is a Pittsburghese word similar to "y'all" or "youse".) So that would make Yinz'r a Pittsburgh Pirate. If he can hit for power, they may sign him to play first base. KWRussell 00:26, 22 December 2006 (EST)

None of his dialogue seems to point towards him being from Pittsburgh. This could be an egg, but needs evidence pointing towards it not being coincidental, i.e. a developer who hates/is from Pittsburgh. Rip-Saw 18:08, 1 August 2007 (EDT)

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