Skyrim talk:Blood on the Ice/Archive 4

This is an archive of past Skyrim talk:Blood on the Ice discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page, except for maintenance such as updating links.

The BIG Blood on the Ice Investigation

Okay, it is time to narrow down all the various complaints, glitches bugs and what have we – and everything is now archived here, so please don't edit that page. As far as I can see, not counting the bugs already mentioned on the quest page, the following needs to be tested:

Why is Calixto invincible for certain users? (SOLVED - explanation here)
Why will Calixto disappear for an unknown amount of time during the quest?
Why will Viola disappear for unknown reasons? Note; unknown reasons does not include completing war quests, fighting dragons and the like.
How will the Stormcloaks quest line affect the quest? (provided BOTI quest is not initiated before completion of quest line)
How will the Imperial quest line affect the quest? (provided BOTI quest is not initiated before completion of quest line)
Will it affect the quest if you pickpocket Calixto’s key and read the secret journal from his chest?

As far as I can tell from the hundreds of posts above, it all boils down to these six questions. Mind you, there IS a reason I keep removing cheats like “sell Calixto the Amulet over and over”, because basically you are not supposed to use cheats – this is an Elder Scrolls game, and every stupid thing you do can affect a quest like this.

In short: IF you have a saved file from BEFORE you ever entered Windhelm, then you can help answering the questions above. If you have cheated or done stupid stuff in Windhelm (even killing the quest-related horse sellers outside counts as stupid stuff), then you’re in no position to help out here. Same with questionable console codes, by the way. I have completed this quest 20 times without experiencing a single bug - so it all boils down to figuring out what can be done “wrong” in Windhelm. Also, if you want to help out here, do not add your theories/ideas/console codes – add well-researched info that you have tested yourself. If you can’t be bothered with in-game testing, don’t bother contributing. Lastly, this is NOT a Hjerim-related bug-investigation – Hjerim is heavily involved in the quest, but it’s not important if some cupboard doesn’t spawn when you purchase the house. This is Blood on the Ice stuff only and is the final attempt to get everything right on the page. Despite what sounds like strict rules, I really hope people will make an effort and help out. Thanks in advance.
--Krusty 22:35, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

I played the quest without guides or spoilers up until the point I found out I could not kill Calixto. Then I looked at the storyline description at ElderScrolls Wiki and found that I had completely skipped step 12 (i.e. talking with Calixto and showing him the amulet before putting the mage into the prison). So, the bug is either letting me skip that step, or not taking into account that the step can be skipped. — Unsigned comment by 217.140.247.122 (talk) at 13:32 on 4 January 2012

Sorry, but I just tested that and it doesn't affect the quest. Nevertheless, you pointed me in the right direction; see this section for details on how to bug Cailxto. --Krusty 19:11, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

Pickpocketing his key and stealing his Journal had no effect at all. Did every possible route to finish the quest having stolen the Journal, but it isn't even mentioned. — Unsigned comment by 84.248.192.31 (talk) at 19:29 on 9 January 2012

I know. But some people claims that if you are caught pickpocketing him, he will bug and stay inside his museum, breaking the quest. I don't really believe it, but if you have the patience, please do a test. :) --Krusty 19:43, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

(←) I hadn't started BOTI until level 48, was trying to get Hjerim. Did all the quests going in Windhelm but didn't get a house offer as in other holds. My latest save that could trigger the quest was at level 40, in between I'd killed Nilsine under the DB questline and completed the imperial questline (just to try and get the house!) amongst other things. Getting the key from tova didn't get the quest to trigger on entering Hjerim. After raging for a bit and doing the quest from the old save I eventually got it to fire from a level 47 save just before starting the imperial questline, what worked for me was:

using console to resurrect nilsine and tova (prid 1b12c/prid 1b12a, resurrect, disable, enable, moveto player)
StopQuest MS11PreEssentializing
StartQuest MS11PreEssentializing
fast travel to winterhold, set MS11EnteringWindhelmCount to 3, wait till 9pm
fast travel to windhelm, immediately walk left via the market to the cemetery.

I think that MS11PreEssentializing gets stuck if certain NPCs involved in the quest die. I think completing the imperial questline also breaks it (whether just because of the guard who gives the quest dying or some effect on Jorleif or other objects). If anyone is still stuck triggering the quest they might try what I did but include all the NPCs in the quest aliases (via sqv) and the stormcloak guard (45c25). --PeterW 88.104.224.235 01:42, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

If you have a good save file that works with the quest, you could try killing the guards around there & see if you still get it. Not sure if anyone has tried this yet, I haven't seen people mention it besides some saying that Imperial quest "always bugs it, period." If the guard has some specific ID, maybe resurrecting him would help (unlikely as it doesn't seem to work with other quests [unless there's an additional command to reset them after resurrecting], but worth a mention) Ryshu 07:35, 18 January 2012 (UTC)

More information: I created a character that did the Imperial side of the war quest before any other quests and only entered Windhelm twice for that quest line (deliver axe & final assualt) just before the 1.4 patch. As soon as the patch came in I took the character to Windhelm (3rd confirmed visit) at 6:15pm in-game time to find the body and the onlookers but there was no Imperial Guard around, and I ran around town initiating conversation with every guard to see if one would have the dialogue until 11:30pm (I was afraid to travel out of town and break the quest). I eventually pickpocketed the Hjerim key from Tova and as soon as I entered the quest started. I never did find the supposed Imperial replacement guard, but that could have been because of the time (6:15pm) that I arrived to find the body. I was never able to question witnesses, and Susanna's body soon disappeared and is not in the Hall of the Dead (I tried "player.moveto" and it is in that weird dead body containing cell). Anubis Priest 21:32, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

Thanks Peter, your fix worked perfectly for me after I had tried just about everything else that was suggested. I did this after I had finished the Imperial Legion questline and I'm on patch 1.4.27. I couldn't get it to start before but using those console commands got the graveyard scene to trigger with an Imperial guard instead of the normal Windhelm guard. No problems with the rest of the quest so far and everything seems to be going in order. Conviction 10:00, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Confirmed that PeterW's fix allowed me to trigger the quest as well. Traced it to Arivanya being dead due to a Dragon attack on the stables (located her coffin in the HotD). Ilsine and Tova were both alive, not completed the Imperial questline (I'm a Stormcloak). However, did not need to Stop/Start the PreEssentializing quest, just needed to prid 1b144, resurrect, disable, enable, moveto player on her. EnteringWindhelmCount was at 27 but the quest still triggered, so it looks like it needs to be 4+ rather than exactly 4. I assume this means that, although NPCs can be killed during the quest and they just turn up as dead bodies, they must be alive to trigger the quest. Hope this helps. Andykimbrey 22:07, 19 March 2012 (UTC)

I'm level 41, completed all the faction questlines (Tova committed suicide), did the Civil War quest for the Imperials, and I can confirm that Peter W's fix worked. All I did were the steps to resurrect Tova outside of Windhelm, waited until 2am, and the graveyard scene finally triggered for me. It looks like Tova is the key for not being able to complete this quest.

Solved my game, post 1.4

Similar details to everyone else, visited Windhelm countless times, haven't done Civil War quests, haven't messed with Calixto, haven't gone around killing random people, killed Nilsine during Dark Brotherhood, Tova suicided and is long gone from this world, all this was played in 1.3.

These two things made the event start for me. I resurrected Tova, moved her to me and also had to enable her. I also resurrected Arivanya, who was dead in my game for some reason. She didn't need to be enabled. Resurrecting one or the other didn't start the event. Of note, I was in Winterhold (though I believe anywhere outside the Windhelm area is fine), and I didn't wait for two ladies to get back to their proper places; I travelled to Windhelm immediately after I resurrected them, arrived around 8pm and the event in the graveyard was happening. Also, I believe these two were the only NPCs implicated in the quest that were dead. At least checking the Catacombs, I could only find two coffins, one that certainly belonged to Arivanya and the other probably belonged to Nilsine. There was a third coffin but it was empty.

More Details: I tried the solution two posts above, about talking to the Captain, didn't work for me. I also tried some other things on another save that I'm fairly sure hadn't seen Windhelm on 1.4 yet, that did not make a difference. Nor did anything else I tried.

Important Find: Just for kicks I decided to dick around the world for a week, did pcb on the console to make sure I wasn't going back to the buffered version of Windhelm and lo and behold, graveyard scene was still happening. During the day even. Seems like Bethesda fixed something after all.

Now I'll go on ahead and see if everything else works fine.--201.1.29.2 07:28, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

I had conquered Windhelm without starting this quest. I had to reenable Tova before the quest would start. Resetted enteringwindhelmcount to 3. — Unsigned comment by 72.136.173.74 (talk) at 00:33 on 9 March 2012

Calixto victims

Please detail which NPCs that Calixto is scheduled to assassinate (or attempt to assassinate). 90.229.34.175 10:39, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

Arivanya is the second kill, and Shahvee seems to be the third optional kill, if you go down that line.The Silencer 02:45, 18 March 2012 (UTC)

Non-Side Quest

I've added a note to the page stating that this quest does not count as a side quest in your statistics (in "Side Quests Completed", under General Stats->Quest) because based on my save files, it doesn't. I thought I should back that statement up with more complete details here on the talk page, however, given the bugginess of the quest, the fact that by all other indications (CK type, knotwork) it is a side quest, and that the Official Guide claims it does count.

I completed both MS11 and MS11b (i.e., all the way through killing Calixto). This is on the Xbox 360, and I believe it's with the 1.4 patch (I finished the quest in the evening of Feb. 9, the same day that the patch came out for Xbox -- which means I should have downloaded the patch earlier that day). I did the quest without jailing Wuunferth, and without letting a second victim die (I attacked Calixto before he was able to finish killing her). So it's possible another set of choices could cause this quest to count. On the other hand, I've scoured all of the quest stage scripting and any dialogue scripts where it seems possible that end-of-quest stuff could happen, and I can't see any place in this quest where the command AchievementsQuest.IncSideQuests() gets called.

Also, for what it's worth, when I was initially looking at my game statistics, I mistakenly thought that this quest had counted, because my quest counter said 7 side quests, and I could count 7 side quests (including Blood on the Ice) in my list of completed quests. However, it turns out that completing Delayed Burial increments the Side Quests Completed counter -- so that was my 7th quest, not Blood on the Ice. I went back through my save files to confirm each individual quest completion that increased the counter. Just in case any one else mistakenly thinks that Blood on the Ice counted solely based on the numbers adding up correctly in the end. --Nephele^Talk 18:12, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

Pop Culture Reference

Is it worth mentioning the possible parallels between the quest's story and that of other fiction such Frankenstein, or Bride of Re-animator, both of which feature the construction of a being from the bodies of others? -- Haravikk 15:04, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

If it should be mentioned anywhere, it would be the Easter Eggs page, not the quest page itself. Check the page to see if it's already there, and if it's not, check the discussion page to see if it's already been proposed as an addition. Alphabetface 18:04, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

Quest Required NPCs?

The one character I have had since Skyrim's release could never get this quest to trigger. I mean never. Through much painstaking research I have finally got it to trigger. I have found that ALL of these NPCs seem to be required for the quest to trigger flawlessly (if so this might be of utmost importance to so many) and many are not set as essential in the Creation Kit so a dragon attack could kill them, along with quests and so forth:

Susanna the Wicked - in Candlehearth Hall - 1st victim;
Viola Giordano - at her home or Candlehearth Hall - for information as a part of the quest;
Calixto Corrium - at Calixto's House of Curiosities - suspect/murderer;
Arivanya - at Windhelm Stables or in Windhelm - possible 2nd victim (although she is 2nd victim I had to resurrect her to trigger quest);
Wuunfurth the Unliving - in Palace of the Kings - suspect;
Silda the Unseen - on streets of Windhelm - witness;
Jorleif - in Palace of the Kings - allows you to investigate the murders, ends quest;
Helgird - in Hall of the Dead or at graveyard - witness;
Nilsine Shatter-Shield - in House of Clan Shatter-Shield or wandering streets - unknown (I had to resurrect her: my research in the CK doesn't show me why I had to);
Tova Shatter-Shield - in House of Clan Shatter-Shield - to receive key to Hjerim (at least her body is needed) (I did resurrect her);
A Guard - patrol route is Windhelm at night only - initiates investigation (this is the guard the update was to fix).

If you are like me and fought with this quest for almost four and a half months, check the list above because resurrecting an NPC might be the solution.--Anubis Priest 05:30, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

Good work - thanks for that. An "NPCs required" list is needed right on top of the article, and this is a nice first step. There's still some stuff to figure out before it is helpful to all gamers (many of these NPCs will be essential at one point or the other, as far as I remember), but the list seems complete. By the way, I just tested the quest with the entire Imperial Civil War quest line completed, and, after the 1.4, the Imperial Guard will deifinitely initiate the quest for you and it plays out as intended. Question here is - will he also do that if you triggered the bug before installing the patch? --Krusty 06:04, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

I believe that my first character/play through triggered the bug back in mid November because a dragon attack killed Arivanya at the stables (I had the stables key since then), and soon after I killed Nilsine for Muiri as a part of the Dark Brotherhood quest. Without any console commands to manipulate the quest (setstage, etc.) but by only ensuring all the above NPC were alive after the 1.4 update the quest triggered tonight for that character (that sat idle 2 months as I figured this stuff out). --Anubis Priest 06:10, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

Could be that, at least in earlier patch - for whatever reason, I never experienced any real bugs with the quest (unless I really did my best to make them happen). I do know, however, that at some point I experimented with killing Arivanya after turning in Wuunferth - which resulted in her dying "twice" as her dead is scripted - or starts to be scripted at some point. A discovery like that was what lead me to wait on the CK for a full "cast list" -but, unfortunately, the CK didn't really help. --Krusty 06:20, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

After determining Arivanya was dead by locating her coffin in the HotD, I enabled her and did a player.placeAtMe on her. She's now just wandering outside of Candlehearth Hall where I placed her. Fast-travelled to Winterhold, back to Windhelm Stables, waited until 2AM and re-entered the city, but no dead body in the graveyard. Am I missing something in resurrecting Arivanya or is this a different bug I am experiencing? Andykimbrey 08:19, 19 March 2012 (UTC)

Arivanya is scripted to die, so even if she is dead when you turn Wuunferth in (by talking to Jorleif), she will show up as a dead body on the streets for part two of the quest. Because of this, I'm not sure messing around with the console will help you. --Krusty 23:47, 18 March 2012 (UTC)

As written above, confirmed that Arivanya must be alive to trigger the quest, even though she can die later and turn up as a dead body. To resurrect her if you can't see her, you need to prid 1b144, resurrect, disable, enable, moveto player. Andykimbrey 22:10, 19 March 2012 (UTC)

Aw come on admins

How could no one have connected this to Jack the Ripper? All young women, all mutilated in a way, and all were attracted to calixto, the same way Jack the Ripper drew his victims in, its obvious really. Emzi43 20:38, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

This would count as an easter egg, and is therefore not information we put on pages. --kiz ^talk_email 20:40, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

As it is an easter egg, it would be better to be proposed here. There is already a discussion about what this quest is based on, though that's more related to Frankenstein than Jack the Ripper. --Velyanthe 20:43, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

Randomly dead??

I started this quest and it was all fine at the start but i finished the stormcloak storyline and went into the house without getting the pbjective and i come out viola giordano appears dead i never killed her or done anything bad but i also get 2000 bounty and i never payed it off or had guards after me from anywhere and it goes away???? — Unsigned comment by 74.38.20.174 (talk) at 06:06 on 27 March 2012

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