User talk:SerCenKing

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Question regarding checking Oblivion and Shivering pagesEdit

Hey there SerC. I wonder if you, as a Patroller, also monitor the Oblivion and Shivering talk pages. Unfortunately, I missed some changes made between 18 and 27 September, as they are just over 90 days old (the limit of the Recent Changes page). Therefore, I wasn’t able to respond to any questions that may have been posted on the talk pages during those days. As a Patroller, are you able to see changes made more than 90 days ago? C0rTeZ48 (talk) 19:02, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

As noted on the AN, these logs have been deleted from the database. It is not a question of user permissions. —⁠Legoless (talk) 20:19, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

Clarification on Potion Appearance ChancesEdit

Hi SerC,

I just noticed that you edited the Goblin and Marauder pages, where you calculated different chances for the appearance of potions, and edited certain lines. I’m curious about how you arrived at those numbers, and why you edited those lines.

For example, if we take the Goblin Shaman, the relevant cslist (0x0000bc2f) indicates that for a level 15+ Shaman, the average amount of Strong Potions of Healing would be 6 * 0.34 = 2.02 * 0.75 = 1.515. This chance for healing potions will be even lower for lower-level Shamans (f.e., level 13 or 14 bosses), since their item counts are either 1 or 2. This is in line in what I mentioned before: namely, that there could be up to 6 potions, but on average, there will often be up to 2 potions (f.e., you can't have 1.5 potions). Also, due to the 'Alllvl=0', potions are always strongest possible for each level, which is a correct line that is also removed.

In the case of a lvl 15 Shaman, there would be at least one potion in 1 - 0.66^6 ≈ 95% of all cases. However, you have stated that there is a 97% chance of the Shaman carrying at least one potion. This is not only a slightly different number, but is also only the case for lvl 15+ Shamans.

I also noticed some changes you made to the Scrolls page, but I’ll address those another time. C0rTeZ48 (talk) 02:50, 13 March 2025 (UTC)

Hello and thanks for taking a look! To explain the reasoning behind the changes:

I removed the "33%" from the tables, as this is the chance of the individual LL2 leveled list rather than of the potions. It's therefore misleading to have it next to the potions themselves, particularly when there's an asterisk referring to a more accurate description later down the page. See also the discussion from Oct 2023 above regarding the Necromancer page.
On the text, I'm not disagreeing that 6 is the maximum, but I found it redundant since we already specify in the table that the values are 0-6. Regarding the average number of potions, note that your math above is slightly wrong: 6 * 0.34 actually equals 2.04 so the average is 1.53. What I tried to do instead of an average number, though, was to calculate the value of at least 1 potion appearing. I calculated this as 1 - 0.66^6 = 91.73% (note: not ~95% as above) but then typo-ed 97% instead of 92%... My bad, not sure how that happened! However, looking at it again now I think there are actually two issues with this approach:

First, as you've alluded to above, these calculations relate specifically to level 15+ shamans, but this is not explicitly stated on the page. It is therefore currently misleading. As you say, the average is even lower at lower levels, so I don't think there's much point in giving an average potion figure due to the fluctuation between levels. What could still be calculated and be true across all levels is the minimum chance of at least 1 potion appearing (i.e. the chance of a potion appearing when the count of the "child" LL0 list in the "parent" LL1 is 1). This sets the "floor" for the minimum you can expect, which I think could be useful info.
Second, I realized we both made a conceptual mistake. The chance of at least one potion appearing is not 1 - (0.66)^n but rather 1 - (0.66 + (0.34 * 0.25))^n. This is because you need to consider not just the outcome where the no LL0 list is returned (66%) but also the outcome where the LL0 list is returned (34%) and that list then does not return a potion (25%). Which means that the minimum (i.e. when n=2, as there are two LL1 lists) probability of at least 1 potion appearing is 44.49%, with the maximum (i.e. when n=6) being 82.82%. My proposal would thus be to include 44.5% (or 44%, if rounded to the nearest whole number) in place of the existing 97%.

On the "strongest possible for each level" point, we actually have had this discussion before (see discussion from Oct 2023 above regarding the Conjurer page). Basically these potion leveled lists are some of the few where Calculate from all levels <= PC's level being unchecked in fact does not always result in the strongest possible for each level. You can see this by taking e.g. a level 10 Shaman, where they'll have an equal chance of having either a weak or a strong potion. By definition if they end up carrying the weak one, it is not the "strongest possible" for that level.

Hope this is clear. Let me know what you think and I'll try to also get back to you on the scrolls point below shortly. --SerCenKing (talk) 10:15, 14 March 2025 (UTC)

Just weird how I somehow typed ~95% for 1 - 0.66^6 when it is indeed rather about 91.73%, and 2.02 for 6*0.34 when it is 2.04... Funny to see how I'm also suffering from not knowing how it's happening.

I have thought about the issues for a while, and I suggest the following might be good solutions:

First, completely do away with the line you always have at least a X% chance of at least 1 potion appearing. The correct chances are indeed 1 - (0.66 + 0.34 * 0.25)^n. However, n is a different value for many different levels. While 44.49% as a minimum is not an incorrect number, it's still misleading to the vast majority of all cases where players would encounter regular lvl 15+ Shamans (the tribe Shamans don't respawn, and are even a minority of all goblins encountered in-game, and boss Shamans are only encountered in lvl 13-14). Shamans encountered at levels below this rather have 1 - (0.66 + 0.34 * 0.25)^2 or 1 - (0.66 + 0.34 * 0.25)^4 of having at least one potion. Also if I'm correct, the X% chance of at least one would be unique to the Goblin Shamans, as there is no other page on a creature or enemy where chances are stated as such. Usually, flat percentages or averages are used for different levels.
Second, in line with what I stated at 1, I would instead use averages, or even flat percentages. On average, each potion has exactly 25.5% chance of being encountered. These numbers change between levels. For level 15+ Shamans, it would be 1.53 potions. If we want to be consistent with how we give values on many different pages, it would be best to keep it simple and give averages for all levels. This would end up being the following: levels 1-2: 0.51 Weak Potion of Healing, levels 3-4: 1.02 Weak Potion of Healing, levels 5-6: 0.51 Potion of Healing, levels 7-9: 1.02 (Weak) Potion of Healing, levels 10-11: 0.51 Weak/Strong Potion of Healing, levels 12-13: 10.2 Weak/Strong Potion of Healing, level 14: 0.51 Potion of Healing, level 15+: 1.53 Strong Potion of Healing. If you would rather give percentages than averages, then it's best to state for every level what and how many particular potions of healing can be encountered, and then give a flat average of 25.5% for each of these potions.

Also, I just noticed that the Bitterfish Goblin Shaman has false information as it will only carry 2 guaranteed Weak Potion of Healing at all times, in addition to another guaranteed random weak potion since it's from a different list (0x000887f9). C0rTeZ48 (talk) 16:02, 20 March 2025 (UTC)

I would say that if we don't want to have the minimum chance of appearance (on this page and others) then keeping simply the individual % per potion is the way forward. Having information for various levels would be too long & cumbersome. And good spot on the Bitterfish Shaman, will update. --SerCenKing (talk) 13:23, 23 March 2025 (UTC)

Calculation of Scrolls for Various Shivering Isles DungeonsEdit

Hi SerC,

I will share how I calculated the number of scrolls for each of the following dungeons you changed (all counted for level 9+):

Xiditte:
- Zone 1 will have an average of 4 Zealots (75% chance for 4 Zealots to be Zealots, 1 is always guaranteed, and the Arbiter doesn't respawn, so it won't be counted because he won't be there on every subsequent visit). This equals to 4 * 0.5 * 2 = 4 scrolls. The urn adds an additional 0.1 scroll on average.
- Zone 2 will have an average of 3 regular Zealots and 1 boss-type Zealot. The boss doesn't carry any scrolls, and the Guard isn't counted because he doesn't respawn. This adds another 3 scrolls. The boss urn doesn't contain scrolls, and the Crystal Chest isn't counted because its contents don't respawn either. So far, this adds up to 7.1 scrolls.
- The exterior is a bit tricky, as it may have either 1 or 2 Zealots, both with a 75% chance to spawn as Zealots rather than a Flesh Atronach. However, if only 1 spawns, the other may also spawn if a save file is loaded before exiting the dungeon (the game does another roll for the other enemy´s spawn every time you exit the dungeon after a reload, because the exterior is 'forgotten' if you reload inside the dungeon). Given this, we can add either 1.5 * 0.75 * 0.5 * 2 = 1.125 scrolls or 2 * 0.75 * 0.5 * 2 = 1.5 scrolls for the Zealots. The chest adds an additional 0.1 scroll.
- Putting this all together, we get 7.1 + 1.125/1.5 + 0.1 = 8.325 or 8.7 scrolls.
The Howling Halls (after Symbols of Office quest): calculating in the same way as Xiditte, in Zone 1 we get 3.75 scrolls from Zealots, in Zone 2 we get 5.25 from Zealots and 0.5 from chests (excluding the 3 guaranteed scrolls), and in Zone 3, we get 1.5 from Zealots. So far, this adds up to 11 scrolls. The exterior is just like Xiditte, where we can add either 1 + 0.375 or 0.75, bringing the total to either 12.375 or 12.75.
Fain: For the interior, we get 2 * 0.5 * 2 (from Zealots) + 1.3 from containers (2 * 0.5 from Monster Boss Hollowed Stump, and 3 * 0.1 from every other chest). This adds up to 3.3 scrolls, and the exterior simply has an additional 3 * 0.5 * 2 = 3 scrolls, bringing the total to 6.3.
Knifepoint Hollow: Zone 1 and the exterior don't have any scrolls, and Zone 2 has 10 * 0.75 * 0.5 * 2 = 7.5 scrolls from Zealot enemies on average, plus 0.4 from the chests, adding up to 7.9 scrolls.
Xavara: For the interior we get 8 + 0.55 = 8.55 (0.25 for Undead boss urn, and 3 * 0.1 for regular Zealot urns/chests). The Guard scroll isn´t counted.

So I did get Fain right, but I did make some mistakes in calculating The Howling Halls, Knifepoint Hollow, Xiditte and Xavara (it seems like I calculated some 75% Zealots/Heretics as 100%, didn't calculate some chests properly, and didn't calculate the exterior for Xiditte). However, for most of these, I was only off by a little. C0rTeZ48 (talk) 12:57, 13 March 2025 (UTC)

Hi there, thanks for checking this one out too. At the moment I've only had time to look at Xiditte, but perhaps my calculations below will be helpful in clearing up the others while I get to them. So, here goes:

Xiditte Zone 1: There are the following respawning sources:
- 4 SELL2Zealot100. These have a 100% chance of being a Zealot at levels 1-8 and a 75% chance at levels 9+. As each Zealot has two SELL2NPCScroll50 lists, the average per Zealot is 1 scroll. This gives on average 4 scrolls at levels 1-8 and 3 scrolls at levels 9+.
- 1 SEXPxiditteSELL2Zealot100 which will always be a Zealot. So this gives an additional 1 scroll on average, at all levels.
- 1 SEDungZealotChestRuin02 which contains 1 LL2LootScroll10 list, so another 0.1 scroll on average.
Xiditte Zone 2: There are the following respawning sources:
- 4 SELL2Zealot100 as above this gives on average 4 scrolls at levels 1-8 and 3 scrolls at levels 9+.
Xiditte Exterior:
- 1 SELL2Zealot100 which gives on average 1 scroll at levels 1-8 and 0.75 scrolls at levels 9+.
- 1 SELL2Zealot50 which gives on average 0.5 scrolls at levels 1-8 and 0.375 scrolls at levels 9+.
- 1 SEDungZealotChestRuin01 which contains 1 LL2LootScroll10 list, so another 0.1 scrolls on average.

If you add all this up you will see that this amounts to 10.7 scrolls at levels 1-8 and 8.3 scrolls at levels 9+, which are the amounts I added to the Scrolls page. To address what I see as three errors with your calculations above:

You seem to have missed SEXPxiditteSELL2Zealot100 in the first zone.
You appear to assume that the 75% chance attached to a Zealot being returned by SELL2Zealot100 is constant, whereas it varies according to level. That is why it is crucial to add figures for both below and above level 9.
For the exterior, I get what you mean regarding reloading and exiting when it comes to SELL2Zealot50. However, this is quite a specific occurrence and it can be gamed (i.e. you can theoretically reload and exit enough times for the 50% to approximate 100%). It therefore both supposes certain actions on the part of the player and adds complexity, whereas we should aim for a simple statement that is as universally true as possible. We should thus stick to calculating the average scrolls based on the probability of a Zealot appearing being simply 50%.

Hope this clarifies things. I will try to also have a look at the others soon in case I added a non-respawning chest or something, but hopefully the above should cover most divergences. --SerCenKing (talk) 11:24, 14 March 2025 (UTC)

Hey so I took at look at the others as well, here are my findings:

The Howling Halls: In line with my points (2) and (3) the average number of scrolls is 16.1 at levels 1-8 and 12.5 from levels 9+. Will need to correct the article as I mistakenly added the 3 guaranteed scrolls.
Fain: The 3 enemies in the exterior are all actually from the SELL2Heretic100 leveled list, which has an 80% chance of returning SELL1HereticMage100 and a 20% chance of returning SELL1Hunger100. I've updated the place page to reflect this. As a result the percentages for the exterior need to be multiplied by 0.8, giving 2.4 scrolls. Total is then 5.7; I typo-ed 5.8 in the Scrolls page so will need to fix that too.
Knifepoint Hollow: You've missed the Hollowed Stump (SEDungZealotChestRoot) in the first zone that has a 10% chance of containing a scroll, so that's an extra 0.1 on average. Then following my points (2) and (3) you get 10.5 at levels 1-8 and 8 from levels 9+, as per my update to the page.
Xavara: The Undead boss urn actually has two LL2Scroll25 leveled lists, so there is an additional 0.25 compared to your workings. I'd also missed this initially (will fix this page shortly) and I must have missed one of the other chests too. So the amount that needs to be corrected on the page is actually 8.8.

Let me know if you have any further questions. --SerCenKing (talk) 13:41, 14 March 2025 (UTC)

Hi, I will respond to this comment first:

As for Xiditte, perhaps I wasn't clear in the way I phrased it, but with the 1 [Zealot] is always guaranteed, I meant the SEXPxiditteSELL2Zealot100. Also, I indeed only calculated these for 9+, as indicated by my typing (all counted for level 9+). Your '8.3' isn't all that different from my '8.375', even though I think it's better to round up to 8.4, rather than 8.3.
For The Howling Halls, how exactly did you arrive at 12.5 for lvl 9+, rather than the 12.375 I calculated?
Fain: I see. How do you actually check what the leveled list returns for a spawn? Is this something you check in-game with console command?
Knifepoint Hollow and Xavara: Weird, seems like I indeed overlooked those. Thanks for checking again. C0rTeZ48 (talk) 14:42, 20 March 2025 (UTC)

Hello, so on each dungeon:

Xiditte: At levels 9+ the total is 8.325 not 8.375, hence why I rounded down to 8.3.
The Howling Halls: The difference is in the exterior, where the total is 1.475 (rounded to 1.5): 1 from the guaranteed Zealot, 0.375 from the 50% Zealot LL (which is 37.5% chance of a Zealot) and 0.1 from the chest.
Fain: I'm not sure I fully understand the question, but the creature LL works with the same logic as an item LL. So whenever you travel to Fain each enemy has an 80% of being a heretic and 20% chance of being a Hunger.

--SerCenKing (talk) 13:38, 23 March 2025 (UTC)

Heya SerC, I thought I already responded to this comment, but I guess I did not. I only wonder how found out that exact spawn returned 80% chance of it spawning a heretic, and 20% chance of spawning a Hunger. My guess is you did so by checking it with console command? You claim it may have to do with the leveled list, but don't most such leveled list always give a 100% spawn rate for a heretic? I simply wonder how you know that particular gives a 80% versus 20% spawn rate, rather than a regular 100% spawn rate. C0rTeZ48 (talk) 23:58, 24 April 2025 (UTC)

(←) Hello! Yep I can see it from the Construction Set: if you open the SELL2Heretic100 list you will find it to contain 4 SELL1HereticMage100 lists and 1 SELL1Hunger100 list, all set from level 1. Here is the LVLC in the CS List, for reference. It's quite common (in fact I think always the case) for the main NPC enemies to have leveled lists which they share with creatures (e.g. Necromancers and undead, Conjurers and daedra, etc) --SerCenKing (talk) 14:11, 29 April 2025 (UTC)

Thanks for the tipsEdit

Apologies for clogging up the recent changes with my edits.
I have used the new tabbed Remastered image template on all my other edits, but it was just that one in particular: The Unfortunate Shopkeeper I couldn't edit correctly for some reason (I've now realised it was a mobile limitation on my end, in hindsight I should've switched to the desktop URL to edit the page in that instance)

Anyway thanks for the kind words of support and tips for making better edits. All the best! --Leopard (talk) 19:12, 1 May 2025 (UTC)

My pleasure! Yes, unfortunately I think we are still in the process of making the tabbing work on mobile - hopefully that'll be fixed soon. If you have any questions on editing and the like, feel free to drop me a line. --SerCenKing (talk) 19:43, 1 May 2025 (UTC)

OBR Place image ratioEdit

Can I just confirm the new ^OBRplace images can be 16:9 ratio now, instead of the old 4:3? I have been uploading in 16:9 so far as I saw other users doing so, but if that's an issue I will convert my previous place images to 4:3 to match the older style. Thanks for your help! - Leopard (talk) 10:32, 8 May 2025 (UTC)

Hello! Yes, I can confirm that 16:9 is now the preferred aspect ratio for place, quest, etc pages. We indeed used to have 4:3 back in Oldblivion days, but the consensus was changed for Skyrim images. So all good :) --SerCenKing (talk) 12:59, 8 May 2025 (UTC)

Perfect! Thanks for confirming :) - Leopard (talk) 21:59, 8 May 2025 (UTC)

Remaster imageEdit

Hello, I would like to contribute and editing the Oblivion:S'jirra remaster image to have a new one where we can see her in full view/size without cropping and with better lighting like the original Oblivion image Syraa (talk) 17:25, 8 May 2025 (UTC)

Hi there, I see there's already an OBR image for S'jirra and that the one you uploaded seems to have something odd going on with her facial hair? In any case, there's lots of other NPC pages still needing images that you can contribute to - feel free! I actually don't own the Remaster yet, so if you want advice on images I know AKB, Eve and TheDravenator have all being uploading lots. Thanks! --SerCenKing (talk) 13:44, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

Hi, another site admin Kiz, has already helped me get started on the site. There is nothing odd going with her facial hair. It's just the way the light is behaving in this scene with the candles on the left. Thank you for getting back to me :) - Syraa (talk) 02:10, 13 May 2025 (UTC)

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