Lore talk:Chimer

Wording on AppearanceEdit

"It is assumed that the Tribunal used divine energies to change their appearance, which explains why they did not appear as Dunmer."

So are you saying that the Tribunal are, in fact, Dunmer, but still possess the appearance of Chimer?

A better way to say that might be: Though the Tribunal appear unchanged, they are, in fact, Dunmer. It is assumed that they drew on divine energies to retain or recreate their appearance. — Unsigned comment by 66.90.158.77 (talk) at 23:12 on 9 March 2007‎

Don't forget Vivec; he appears half-half. --59.100.47.179 18:40, 12 March 2007 (EDT)

Almalexia is a fully chimer, Vivec half-half and Sotha Sil a fully dunmer. So, yeah, it could be, that they used divine magic to stay as Chimer oder half-Chimer, but I don't think so. I don't see a system behind that and don't think, that it has anything to do with divine energies. -- --Katan 03:36, 21 March 2007

Well, obviously divine magic comes into play when the Chimer were cursed by Azura. Personally, I think the Tribunal's powers would be easily enough to change their appearance from Dunmer back to Chimer. In fact, I do see a system behind it. Sotha Sil, the recluse doesn't care if he appears Dunmer, and thus he appears Dunmer. On the other hand, Almalexia is the one that cares the most about appearances, judging from Tribunal, so it is no surprise that she appears as a Chimer. Vivec is a bit more of a mystery, but he's out there anyways, so it almost makes sense that he'd be half and half. --Ratwar 22:48, 20 March 2007 (EDT)

I always got the impression that Vivec appeared half and half by choice. Technically, with his godly powers he could take on any appearance he chose to, but he decided to go with split-down the middle Chimer/Dunmer as a reminder of what the Dunmer once were or something like that. However, I think it would be a mistake to actually say that he is half-Chimer, or that Almalexia is Chimer, or even that Sotha Sil is Dunmer. They're divine beings now, and whatever race they once were is no longer relevant. --TheRealLurlock ^Talk 10:18, 21 March 2007 (EDT)

Sotha Sil is not Dunmer. Anyone who has completed Tribunal MQ knows that. He looks more like Almalexia. Kertaw48 22:02, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

sourcesEdit

Good sources would be The Changed Ones and Before the Ages of Man.Temple-Zero 00:12, 1 January 2009 (EST)

There is a brief mention of the Chimer in Azura and the Box: Ancient tales of the Dwemer, Part XI, by Marobar Sul (from Oblivion)

"Among the sage's acquaintances was a holy Chimer priest named Athynic."

"Athynic summoned Azura. After the usual rituals by which the priest declared his faith in her powers and Azura agreed to do no harm to him..."

— Unsigned comment by 72.12.163.242 (talk) at 04:04 on 7 January 2009

The Chimer are also mentioned in A Children's Anaud (also from Oblivion)

"Over many years, the Ehinofey of Tamriel became:...

- the Chimer (the Changed Ones, who later became the Dunmer), and

- the Dunmer (the Dark or Cursed Ones, the Dark Elves)"

— Unsigned comment by 72.12.163.242 (talk) at 17:44 on 7 January 2009

PronounciationEdit

I cant tell; is the name supposed to be "Kai-MER" (sounds like "Kaiser") or Chime-er (As in, "Wind Chime")? I think it would be odd for it to be the latter, considering the TOnal Architects were Dwemer. And it would seem really odd that the Dwemer, whos name is based on the word "Dweomer" (Witchcraft, Dwarf-Talk, etc.) to be tonal architects, while Chime-er seems an odd choice for daedra worship. Its like they got them backwards somehow.

Or is it just me?

74.128.56.194 04:29, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

I don't think the term was ever used in spoken dialogue, although personally, I've always said Chime-er myself. --DKong27 ^{Talk Cont} 04:59, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

I'm thinking Kai-mer, similar to how you'd pronounce Chimera. -Nikomis 16:34, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

Altmer/ AldmerEdit

The page speaks about Chimer being a subsect of Altmer, but both Varieties of Faith in the Empire and the Changed Ones speaks of Aldmer. The reference is a link, and I dont know how to change those. --Merari 23:07, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

"though the Chimer were physically indistinguishable from their former compatriots."Edit

I don't think that's true. The Chimer learned to change themselves with the teachings of Boethiah and Azura, and were physically distinct from the Aldmer--68.230.66.230 22:41, 6 December 2012 (GMT)

Do you have any source for this? — Unsigned comment by 212.247.178.4 (talk) at 07:40 on 24 May 2013

I don't think there is a source for this. The Anticipations, among other things, suggests their skin did noticeably change. And it's a shame, too, because I think the Shoddycast folks on youtube relied on this notion to the detriment of one of their otherwise stellar lore videos. Minor Edits^{Threats•Evidence} 18:43, 24 May 2013 (GMT)

who spoke to them on behalf of Boethiah, Prince of Plots, and two other "Good Daedra".Edit

ok so there's Boethiah, Azura, who's the third one? does someone can fix this? — Unsigned comment by 174.95.30.84 (talk) at 19:57 on 21 July 2013

Mephala. Minor Edits^{Threats•Evidence} 20:16, 21 July 2013 (GMT)

Chimer appearanceEdit

In 2006, the page basically acknowledged what the vast majority of people seem to agree on: Almalexia represents a Chimer. But there seems to be some disagreement on what that means. Different people are looking at the same images and coming to opposite conclusions. In Christmas of 2008, Temple-Zero wrote that they were physically indistinguishable from the Altmer, a conclusion I highly dispute, so I changed it in June 2013.

We're left with a clear indication in The Anticipations that the "followers of Boethiah" (i.e., Chimer) changed their skin, and they're literally called "the Changed Folk". I think it's clear that Almalexia and the lighter side of Vivec in TES III had a noticeably different hue from Altmer in the game. And yet, there's still the occasional person I run into saying we had every reason to believe they were physically indistinguishable. It baffles me.

But the question seems redundant in light of ESO, given that now, it's hard for me to tell if the Chimer look any different than Dunmer. I've just seen screenshots taken at different resolutions with different lighting.

Long story short:

1. Are the ESO Chimer physically distinguishable from the Dunmer?

2. Are the ESO Chimer distinguishable from the ESO Almalexia?

3. How and where should we describe their appearance on the page?

Insignificant Revisions^{Threats•Evidence} 22:04, 16 April 2014 (GMT)

As I understand it:

1. No.

2. Yes.

3. Put it down to another ESO fail retcon, mention it because it's there, and move on.

Basically they've used the same model as the Dunmer for the Chimer, and this alone contradicts the established lore because we know their appearance changed, and that's not up for debate. Almalexia is noticeably different from the Dunmer, and also different from the Altmer (although perhaps not as noticeable). Basically, for the brief appearance of those three Chimer characters, it seems they couldn't be bothered to reskin the models. --Enodoc (talk) 08:42, 17 April 2014 (GMT)

I think we should try to ignore it in lorespace, along with a lot of ESO stuff. This goes against current site principle, but something as blatantly sloppy as this warrants nothing more than a footnote. —Legoless (talk) 14:46, 17 April 2014 (GMT)

To preface this, the last time I saw the chimer was in beta, but I could swear that they weren't identical to Dunmer.... I swear they were much much yellower than dunmer were, but with the same facial features, which WOULD fit with the previous chimer descriptions.... Is this NOT the case anymore? Jeancey (talk) 15:57, 17 April 2014 (GMT)

Compare this (couldn't find any pictures of chimer on the wiki) to any Dunmer picture. Looks almost the same to me. --AN|L (talk) 16:31, 17 April 2014 (GMT)

Well, just like the whole Almalexia/Altmer thing, "almost" the same doesn't really the matter. It would necessarily imply they're not the same, in the end. They can be very, very similar, and still distinct. From that image, General Balreth seems to have a slightly lighter complexion than the one I associate with the Dunmer. Captain Rana, for instance, seems to have a green tint, whereas General Balreth appears to have a light steel-blue tint. Of course, I'm not entirely sure where that baseline is now for the Dunmer in ESO. We need more than just one screenshot, we need a litany of shots covering all the relevant NPCs, at the same resolution and in the same lighting conditions across the board, so we can accurately compare them with each other and other general shots in ESO.

Legoless, I'd love to simply ignore this, if we do that, we'd have to lock the page, too, to avoid anons adding it over and over again. And I don't think even the registered site users will tolerate the omission. I think, at the very least, we have to have a note about their appearance. Insignificant Revisions^{Threats•Evidence} 17:02, 17 April 2014 (GMT)

Here's another image of a Chimer that I posted on the forums, clearly showing red eyes. I don't disagree with adding a note or even an image to the lore page, but I think we should avoid integrating this into the main text for now. —Legoless (talk) 17:09, 17 April 2014 (GMT)

At first, I was... Oh my Glob! They are distinct! The Changed ones! But then I... Oh no! Dammit! This is boring! They still differ, though. Okay, you guys could use these screenshots in articles. Phoenix Neko (talk) 17:55, 13 May 2014 (GMT)

Edit BreakEdit

See here for a video of Almalexia in ESO. See here for a video of ESO Chimer without any in-game filter getting in the way (thank you, Enodoc). While it's kind of hard to see past Almalexia's ripply magic, I think they establish that she has a Chimer appearance. Comparing her ESO and Morrowind appearances, I think it's clear that the Chimer appearance itself has been retconned to be a sort of pale steel-green color instead of the deep gold color we saw previously.

Anyway, at this point, I'd like to mention in the intro that the Chimer looked like the Dunmer but with lighter skin (keep it pretty vague), and then elaborate on the apparent ESO retcon of their appearance in a note. Insignificant Revisions^{Threats•Evidence} 19:06, 12 August 2014 (GMT)

Honestly, I think they look gold, or atleast yellow-y, and Almalexia 100% looks gold (just see the image we have uploaded of her here). I don't there is any retconning going on here (besides Almalexia not being dual colored, but it's possible she can change her appearance with magic). Jeancey (talk) 19:35, 12 August 2014 (GMT)

I agree. The steely tint on Almalexia is body paint, and without the filter those Chimer look a lot more yellowy. The eyes still seem red to me though... but Dunmer eye colour has kind of gone out the window in Skyrim/ESO anyway, with all the purples and greys around now. —Legoless (talk) 19:39, 12 August 2014 (GMT)

Maybe there's something wrong with my laptop screen, because they don't look yellow to me at all. Almalexia does a little bit, but I think that's because of the light around her, not her skin. But who am I to argue. I take it you are both fine, then, with the current description on the page? That they are a "darker shade of pale gold than the Altmer"? Insignificant Revisions^{Threats•Evidence} 19:55, 12 August 2014 (GMT)

Recently Added UOLEdit

I oppose the addition of PGE2 Cathnoquey-Chimer. We've omitted including such info on Lore:Cathnoquey, shouldn't be here either. It's unsupported stuff that contradicts established lore saying all the Chimer were transformed, with Almalexia being the exception. I further question the validity of PGE2 as a UOL source at all, given its fan-collab nature and precense in the Uutak Mythos. Mindtrait0r (talk) 01:13, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

I would have maybe agreed a while ago, but I really think from Exile to Exodus gives it a bit more legs to stand on. Like that is very easy to tie-in with it. I think it should stay, but could maybe be kept a bit briefer or ambiguous. In addition that section was indeed written by Kirkbride atleast. Tarponpet (talk) 02:00, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

I agree with Tarp that the book helps give it more weight. Its only one small line on the article, I think its presence is fine as is. The Rim of the Sky (talk)

I don’t have any strong stance on this topic since From Exile To Exodus corroborating the Cathnoquey-Chimer is just an assumption that happens to fit very well. It seems to make sense to me, though to say otherwise is not wrong at all since it still is an assumption. From Exile to Exodus even seems to imply that the third she took with her were taken from the island and brought to Oblivion anyway, so the fit isn’t perfect. I might favor this connection being a note and not being in the body of the article.

But I would like to say that I don’t think assuming this stance would necessarily contradict previous lore. It could just be that Azura only cursed those that she brought to Morrowind, “her people”. To a now Dunmer, this would be their concept of “all Chimer”. Mephala’s Cantemiric Velothi could have been killed by the Argonians already, given Dagoth Ur’s desire for revenge and them being an “ancient tribe”, so if Azura would have cursed them or not is irrelevant. Perhaps the Cathnoquey Chimer, which seemingly hated Tamriel and Veloth according to PGE2, also wouldn’t have been changed. Since they were unknown by Tamrielans and also weren’t “Changed” as the Chimer were, perhaps all mentions of “all Chimer changing” excludes them and PGE2 misidentifies them based on Imperial biases. In fact, Azura’s third are the Changed Ones, so “Chimer” could mean just her third while “Velothi” means all of them. Meanwhile the other two thirds died out or became irrelevant to history, and thus were excluded from mention. It would help explain how, if the assumption that Boethiah’s third is on Cathnoquey is taken to be true, a contradiction could be avoided.

Of course, this is all unsupported speculation, but it does help to explain things if the wiki goes the Boethiah-Cathnoquey route. BananaKing5 (talk) 14:24, 4 June 2024 (UTC)