Lore talk:Main Page

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	Archive 1: Jun 2006 - Aug 2008
	Archive 2: Sep 2008 - Jun 2012

This talk page is for discussion specifically about the content of the Main Page. General discussion about the Lore section of the wiki belongs at UESPWiki_talk:Lore.
Casual discussion related to TES Lore, but unrelated to wiki articles, should be restricted to the forums.

Book AuthorsEdit

These people aren't mentioned on the People's articles. But adding the in-game authors of in-game books to those articles would not only be a hassle, but would also not be very productive, since they have very little historical reference. Instead could we place a link in the People section to the Lore:Books_by_Author article? Since there are a lot of people not mentioned on People pages. -- kertaw48 18:56, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

I was bringing this up in the topic below, and I totally agree (honestly, I had overlooked this topic until Eshe archived the old topics). Like Kertaw said, including in-game authors to Lore:People wouldn't add much value. Even if we limit it to authors who possess some historical value, making entries for them would be a big, redundant chore that undoubtedly wouldn't present their significance any better than their books already do.

We don't have a proper Overview page for the Lore Library or for the People section. I propose we remove the authors already in the Lore:People multitopic articles, make those overviews, and note on each that authors are omitted from the People section. We could give specific "shout-outs" in the People overview to authors who do have some historical significance, and let people just read their work(s) if they want more info. I can draft the overview(s) and come back for feedback here.

Hope that makes sense. I don't think I'm explaining myself well; I'm in a rush and in desperate need of coffee at the moment. Minor Edits^{Threats•Evidence} 16:39, 17 October 2012 (GMT)

Took this up at UESPWiki talk:Lore. Minor Edits^{Threats•Evidence} 16:57, 19 October 2012 (GMT)

Need some consensus on these Skyrim NPCsEdit

I'm almost finished updating Lore: People with NPCs from Skyrim who I feel are undoubtedly "lore-worthy". The following is a list of people who, for whatever reason, I didn't feel comfortable adding unilaterally. Some of them I think should be included, some I don't think should be included, but they're all borderline. I thought I should point out that I considered them for inclusion and intentionally omitted them because I felt like more than one man's opinion is needed to decide. It's up to you folks whether they get in the lore section. I'm not going to go through them individually; their potential historical significance, as well the factors that made me hesitant, should be apparent upon review. Most of the alternate jarls, such as Sorli the Builder, are not significant beyond the fact that they might become a jarl, and since there's no satisfactory way to mention that, I don't feel that they're eligible for inclusion, so I've omitted them. Stewards, Thanes, and Court Wizards have been categorically omitted.

I might add to this list if I find more names in the Skyrim lore that I'm ambivalent about.

Edit- For the sake of convenience, New readers can likely ignore crossed-out names, which are those who have been "black-balled" already by one or more contributors, as well as characters whose pages have already been made.

If you're wondering about the absence of some NPCs, it's probably because I intend to add them but haven't yet. Kodlak Whitemane, Korir, Valerica, etc. Only so many hours in a day. Minor Edits^{Threats•Evidence} 19:59, 11 October 2012 (GMT)

I'd be hesitant to give Belyn Hlaalu and the individual Psijic monks separate lore pages. Belyn is only important because of his last name, which is actually pretty common and doesn't necessarily imply any association with the Great House of the same name. We have next to no information on the monks, apart from perhaps the leader (Quaranir, is it?). Most of the others seem okay, but I haven't looked at all of them. I certainly wouldn't object to the creation of any of them. —Legoless (talk) 20:10, 11 October 2012 (GMT)

I agree with Legoless. I'm not sure what Alain Dufont or Mikael's significance is, and I'm not sure that Hamal is important enough to record as more than a passing note under Fjotra (she's the one that's important from a lore perspective). I'm not big on Laelette or Lu'ah Al-Skaven, but I wouldn't mind if they were mentioned. Vittoria Vici could receive a passing note, but she should definitely be mentioned. I think that recording the Orc Chieftains is a good idea (perhaps combine them into one section?), and the same for the mages at the College of Winterhold. Everything else looks good, though. • JA ^T 20:24, 11 October 2012 (GMT)

Mikael is an author, so he made the list. Adonato's on there for the same reason. Some authors of books are mentioned on the Lore: People multi-topic pages. I'm not sure if this is something we really want to continue doing or not, so I punted the issue here. I'm personally not a fan, as it doesn't add much if any value to the pages. Alain probably shouldn't be on here. He is one of the folk I don't think should be added, but he's a bandit leader, his problems with the Shatter-Shield clan were very public, and he possessed Aegisbane, a potential artifact, so I thought I should mention him. I agree on the other people you and Legoless mentioned. Minor Edits^{Threats•Evidence} 20:46, 11 October 2012 (GMT)

Stormcloak, Imperial, and Thalmor leadership are definitely worth mentioning, and Victoria Vici I would mention, since she is part of the Imperial Royal Family and her assassination was one of the reasons Mede came to Skyrim. The rest... Too many are listed for me to find time to glance over. Eric Snowmane^{(talk•email)} 21:02, 11 October 2012 (GMT)

No rush; feel free to review the rest in your own time. In regards to Vici, her assassination doesn't necessarily happen, so her noteworthiness at this juncture would have to depend solely on her East Empire position and her connection to Titus Mede II. Minor Edits^{Threats•Evidence} 21:21, 11 October 2012 (GMT)

(←) I've come up with a decision on each individual page now, and it's under this Showhide to keep the section from becoming painfully long. That was a lot of pages to read :p Eric Snowmane^{(talk•email)} 06:44, 13 October 2012 (GMT)

Snowmane's opinions

Arniel Gane-- UPDATED: Notable for experimentation with Keening

Adonato Leotelli--Notable only in the style that other authors are recorded in.

Alain Dufont--I don't feel that each individual assassination needs documentation.

Ancano--From what I gather, he's one of the driving forces behind the events of the College quests, and the events of the guilds receive attention in lore don't they? If so, then he is relevant to lore.

Belyn Hlaalu-- If the name "Hlaalu" is all he has going for him, then he isn't noteworthy.

Brand-Shei- As the last living heir to the Great House Telvanni, he would definitely deserve mention on that lore page, but I don't see enough to justify his own article.

Brynjolf-- I don't know what to think about him. I suppose as a major player, he could have a page or snippet about him included, but I am on the fence and indifferent to his inclusion.

Chief Burguk- I feel like the Orc chiefs are only worth mentioning wherever the content related to their strongholds is at.

Dexion Evicus- I don't see any other Moths mentioned anywhere, so following that precident, I don't know if he's noteworthy.

Elenwen-Thalmor leadership in Skyrim. Definitely notable.

Fjotra-Don't know enough to make a decision, although I am leaning towards not noteworthy.

Galmar Stone-Fist- Stormcloak leadership is notable.

Gelebros- All Gelebros does is gather the Eye apparently, so he is not particularly noteworthy, beyond a brief mention on his Order's page.

Gularzob-As the successor to an Orc chief, he will fall under that banner with the rest as far as I am concerned.

Jyrik Gauldurson- I don't feel like he is noteworthy.

Hamal- She appears to me as just a simple priestess and not at all noteworthy, IMO.

Haldyn- Not noteworthy

Halldir- Not noteworthy

Idgrod the Younger- Not noteworthy.

Laelette the Vampire- Not noteworthy

Chief Larak- What I said about the other chiefs

Linwe- If the "Summerset Shadows" are given their own page as a TG rival, then he only deserves mention there. If no Shadows page, then he isn't noteworthy at all.

Lu'ah Al-Skaven- She is just a minor necromancer of sorts, it seems. Not notewirthy.

Malyn Varen- He would only be notable when the story of how the Dragonborn got the Star is told on the Azura's Star page, if he is noteworthy at all.

Chief Mauhulakh- Orc chief opinion

Maven Black-Briar- I agree with you that Alternative Jarls aren't noteworthy, ME.

Mikael- Un-noteworthy bard.

Mikrul Gauldurson- Same as the other Gauldurson.

Minorne- Nothing remotely noteworthy.

Mirabelle Ervine- Noteworthy on the College lore page as a teacher at the time, if she is noteworthy at all.

Nerien- Same as the other guy from the Psjiic Order

Orchendor- Noteworthy when retelling the events of The Onl Cure on Peryite's page or his artifact page.

Quaranir- Same as the other Psjiics.

Legate Rikke- Imperial Leadership positions are noteworthy.

Sergius Turrianus- Noteworthy on College page at best.

Sigdis Gauldurson- Same as the other Gauldursons

Silus Vesuius- If he is noteworthy, it's on the Mythic Dawn page when it's describing the Mythic Dawn in 4E 201.

Tandil- Same as the other Psjiics.

Tolfdir- Same as other College members.

Velehk Sain-undecided (probably not noteworthy)

Viarmo- Noteworthy as a Guild master

Vittoria Vici- I think she is notable as a member of the royal family.

Chief Yamarz- Same as prior chiefs

I disagree with the objections to Arniel Gane, the Gauldursons and Silus Vesuius. Arniel's experiments with Keening definitely make him lore-worthy, and I can't understand why the Gauldursons would be excluded, given their rather deep history and relation to an important artifact. Silus Vesuius only deserves a passing mention on the Mythic Dawn article, so giving him his own article would be a better option to trying to include all relevant info on the faction's page. I also disagree with excluding Velehk Sain; a Dremora pirate, featured in a book and with significant background, plus two possible fates based on the player's actions, seems more than noteworthy. Like I said above, there's no actual problem with creating these pages. If someone wants to put the time into writing it, the page isn't going to be deleted or something, as it likely would for someone like Glarthir or Faendal who have no true relevance in lore. —Legoless (talk) 18:30, 13 October 2012 (GMT)

I'd prefer Minorne to not be crossed off. She may be minor, but the Vigil of Stendarr has a page, and she did cause over a dozen of their members to worship her, so I think she's worthy of at least a mention, if not her own page. Her Skyrim page needs some serious work, but there's enough information on her in-game for a lore snippet.— ABCface^◥ 04:10, 15 October 2012 (GMT)

In response to Legoless, I glanced over Arniel a little more closely when you mentioned Keening, since I missed that, and I would agree to her inclusion. I had passed over that quest when it said (Radiant), erroneously assuming it could have been something generic, and I missed the whole Keening thing. The Gauldurson brothers, I am still the same on them, since I am not particularly convinced that amulet is the most interesting of artifacts. If others find the amulet noteworthy as an artifact, rather than just an old amulet, then they would be noteworthy along side it, but right now, I am not convinced yet. Eric Snowmane^{(talk•email)} 04:23, 15 October 2012 (GMT)

(←) I put Minorne back in play. Of course, being crossed out here is just for easy reference on where people seem to stand thus far. I agree with Legoless that if someone chose to skip or ignore the whole committee approach and add someone listed here, I won't be the one to make an issue of it. But as exasperating as case-by-case group analyses can be, I think it can help produce a better product if we abide by such a process.

Anyways, I've already taken care of a few NPCs, who I've crossed out. Rikke, Tolfdir, etc. As for the Gauldursons, I'm really very undecided. Their story has already been told on a few different lore pages, so whatever noteworthiness they have might be a moot point. I share Snowmane's concern that the Gauldur Amulet, in the gsme, at least, turns out to be nothing special. Creating separate snippets for each brother seems a little over-the-top, there's not a lot to say about them individually, and its doubtful we'll get any more information on them in the future. On the other hand, they're involved in a significant amount of Skyrim's lore and world; Bethesda donated substantial time to fleshing out their stories. And from a lore perspective, Gauldur's Amulet is apparently supposed to be freakishly powerful, so the Gauldursons are that much more noteworthy just for being involved with it.

Any further thoughts on the whole author thing would be welcome. I'd like to flesh out the criteria for including them, if we are going to continue doing so without adding every single novelist, historian, or poet in Tamrielic history. Flipping through the multi-topic People pages, I imagine there are quite a few authors who could be added, and maybe a few on there already who could be removed. Minor Edits^{Threats•Evidence} 07:21, 15 October 2012 (GMT)

The Gauldur Amulet certainly seems like a noteworthy artifact from a lore perspective, despite being unique to one game. It will probably get its own article at some point. With an artifact article, having snippets for the three brothers becomes even more important. —Legoless (talk) 20:04, 15 October 2012 (GMT)

Edit Break - UpdateEdit

So, a little more than half of the people listed above have been rejected or added already; a handful remain to be dealt with. I'll split them up accordingly.

Revised List

Completed

Rejected

Adonato Leotelli - Authors not lore-worthy

Alain Dufont - unimportant bandit leader

Dexion Evicus - No real noteworthy role

Gelebros - Just another Psijic

Hamal - The head priestess at the Temple of Dibella, not considered noteworthy enough.

Haldyn - Leader of Blood Horkers; not considered noteworthy enough.

Halldir - Unusual boss; not considered noteworthy enough.

Idgrod the Younger - The princess, more or less, of Morthal at the start of the game; not considered noteworthy enough.

Laelette the Vampire - A vampire who terrorized Morthal; not considered noteworthy enough.

Lu'ah Al-Skaven - Necromancer who tried to raise an army of dead, including Fjori and Holgeir. Not considered noteworthy enough.

Mikael - Authors not lore-worthy.

Nerien - Just another Psijic.

Quaranir - Just another Psijic.

Sergius Turrianus - Authors not lore-worthy.

Tandil - Just another Psijic.

Unresolved - Unless noted otherwise, for a variety of reasons, I don't plan on making any more entries for the remaining people on this list.

Belyn Hlaalu- Dunmer of Skyrim corroborates that he is a descendent of House Hlaalu. Frankly, I didn't think Brand-Shei deserved a lore entry, but someone made one for him. I don't think either of them are lore-worthy, but if Brand-Shei is mentioned, then I think Belyn should be mentioned, too.

Brynjolf - We have entries for Gentleman Jim Stacey, Lucien Lachance and Mercer Frey. But is Brynjolf in the same class? I don't know.

Chief Burguk, Chief Larak, Chief Mauhulakh, Chief Yamarz, and Gularzob - Whether or not the chieftains are lore-worthy is still an open question. Gularzob becomes a chieftain, so he's in the same group.

Elenwen - Meh. The Thalmor ***** can suck it.

Fjotra - I probably am gonna make a little snippet for her.

Galmar Stone-Fist - Meh. True, he's a general of the Stormcloaks. On the other hand, he's basically just Ulfric's housecarl. And frankly, I think he's a pansy.

Jyrik Gauldurson, Mikrul Gauldurson, Sigdis Gauldurson - Meh. Their story is said in the lorespace, and I don't see much point in making separate entries for each brother.

Linwe - If the leader of the Blood Horkers is not lore-worthy, I don't see why the leader of the Summerset Shadows would be.

Malyn Varen - A holder of Azura's Star, an author, and possibly the only person who has successfully corrupted a Daedric Artifact. I'll probably make an entry for him.

Maven Black-Briar - Maven's a bit more than just an alternate jarl. She's crime boss in a city known for crime. She's the true power in the Rift even before she becomes Jarl, and thus is independently noteworthy. I'll probably make an entry for her, as well, provided there are no objections.

Minorne - I'm inclined to think she's not noteworthy.

Mirabelle Ervine - Tolfdir got an entry. I don't see why Mirabelle shouldn't. But even so, my care cup is empty.

Orchendor - Orchendor is basically mayor of crazy town. For some reason, I'm inclined to mention him. But I could be talked out of it.

Velehk Sain - Seems noteworthy given all his background. I'll get around to him eventually, unless someone beats me to it.

Minor Edits^{Threats•Evidence} 03:38, 16 November 2012 (GMT)

Ref TemplateEdit

The current system of using <noinclude> with references is error-prone. I think it would be a good idea to replace that usage with a template.

<ref>text</ref> will become {{ref|text}}
<ref name=desc>text</ref> will become {{ref|name=desc|text}}
<ref name=desc/> will become {{ref|name=desc}}

Any <noinclude> that is present only for the benefit of references can be removed. The references will only show on the article directly using the template, not on any pages transcluding it. In the few cases references should show on the article transcluding it, that can be achieved by slightly altering the transclusion in the target article: {{:basearticle|showrefs=1}} . Since the template internally uses <ref>, mixing the template with manually done references causes no problems.

The proposed template can be found here and a test case using it in this sandbox. --Alfwyn (talk) 15:57, 17 October 2012 (GMT)

If the template works as advertised, I don't see a downside to this. I can't think of any situation where we want to transclude references. Minor Edits^{Threats•Evidence} 16:20, 17 October 2012 (GMT)

This is an excellent idea. • JA ^T 16:25, 17 October 2012 (GMT)

I copied it to Template:-space now. One instance were we transclude references is Lore:Third Era Major, but we don't seem to do that for other Eras. --Alfwyn (talk) 18:31, 17 October 2012 (GMT)

References in multi-topic articlesEdit

Specifically, in the Lore:People, Lore:Places, Lore:Factions, and Lore:Gods multi-topic articles, do we want references for the snippets which are not transcluded from single-topic pages? --Minor Edits 22:36, 4 May 2013 (GMT)

Basically, I want to do what I did here for these sections: update them as appropriate, provide sources, and mark the stuff I can't find a source for so that we can root out false information. -- Minor Edits 01:09, 5 May 2013 (GMT)

Well, I'm taking the dead silence as support so overwhelming your excitement won't allow you to respond. I believe the lore guidelines on citations implicitly call for references on multi-topic articles anyways, so I'm gonna go ahead and clean up these sections. I'll slap {{fact}} tags on the statements I can't corroborate, and once I'm all done, I'll move any that haven't been corroborated to the talk pages in the wiki fact-checking equivalent of total war. Minor Edits^{Threats•Evidence} 05:02, 5 May 2013 (GMT)

Well if it's of any worth I support you. References are badly needed in these types of articles.--Ashendant (talk) 12:27, 5 May 2013 (GMT)

Add a new link ?Edit

I don't see the link for the "lore names" page. Lore:Names Since i can't edit this page to add it myself, anyone withe the rights can do the trick ? — Unsigned comment by 62.212.115.195 (talk)

It's linked under the Appendices section, which has a bunch of articles not major enough to include on the main page. — TheRealLurlock (talk) 15:01, 19 April 2014 (GMT)

I felt it also could be linked from the People page, though not here. Silence is Golden^{Break the Silence} 15:17, 19 April 2014 (GMT)

Question concerning the map shownEdit

Seeing as the Anthology map of Tamriel is the most recent official version of the map of Tamriel, would it be appropriate to swap the current Codex one for the Anthology one?

From the looks of the Anthology map scan, you can still see the folds in the map, some tearing, some blurring, and some shadows, so I personally don't think we should use it. I'm only asking because it is the most recent version. --Rezalon (talk) 07:29, 24 July 2015 (UTC)

I prefer the current version. I almost want to ask Beth if they could give us the original images of the maps, so we can get pretty versions online of them. There isn't an official upload of them, as far as I can see. --AKB ^{Talk Cont Mail} 07:52, 24 July 2015 (UTC)

An ESO map would probably be the most accurate, but the codex one does the job fine. —Legoless (talk) 12:54, 24 July 2015 (UTC)

Bethesda's comments on canon/loreEdit

In the Oblivion Fan Interview III in 2006, when asked if OOG works (Nu-Mantia Intercept and Love Letter from the Fifth Era were used as examples) were a part of Elder Scrolls lore, Gavin Carter, Todd Howard, and Pete Hines said "Remember that only things that have been published in Elder Scrolls games should be considered official lore.", implying that OOG works, or at least Michael Kirkbride's OOG works, aren't canon. Of course this was said in 2006, so the two Keyes novels and other official companion pieces are excluded from this statement.

Despite certain groups of fans still believing Kirkbride's OOG works are canon, I believe that this quote, or a paraphrase with a link to the quote itself, should be put somewhere on this page and any other relevant pages, such as UESPWiki:Lore, just so those confused about TES lore or not knowing that Kirkbride's OOG works are only used on UESP as minor pieces of information backing up information already established in the games know that Bethesda's official stance on these OOG works is not canon.

Note that I am not looking for an argument, and yes I know the place for that is the Forums, but I believe this is an essential quote to the TES community, and should be used more frequently in it. --Rezalon (talk) 05:16, 21 March 2016 (UTC)

Proposed layout for "Races" subsectionEdit

RacesEdit

Numerous races flourish across Nirn. Some are rare, others live in remote areas or dwell on different planes of existence, while others are believed to be purely mythical.

Overview | Man — Mer — Beastfolk — Akaviri — Other | Names

Phoenix Neko (talk) 12:46, 19 November 2016 (UTC)

Looks good to me! You'd need a link to something on Other, and to match the Lore:Races page, maybe Et'Ada should also be added, but I realize that Lore:Et'Ada just links straight to Lore:Gods, which is already here anyway. --Enodoc (talk) 20:09, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

Dunno, maybe instead of "Other" there should be Ehlnofey, Hist, and Daedra? Phoenix Neko (talk) 20:47, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

Okay, next version:

RacesEdit

Numerous races flourish across Nirn. Some are rare, others live in remote areas or dwell on different planes of existence, while others are believed to be purely mythical.

Overview | Man — Mer — Beastfolk — Akaviri — Ehlnofey — Hist — Daedra | Names

Phoenix Neko (talk) 15:40, 4 December 2016 (UTC)

I would replace Ehlnofey with Aedra, since Aedra is in the Races category and Ehlnofey isn't, but otherwise, that looks good!

Overview | Man — Mer — Beastfolk — Akaviri — Aedra — Daedra — Hist | Names

--Enodoc (talk) 09:48, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

Thanks! I'm bit confused though why Aedra even counts as a race. The Ehlnofey are fitting more to that category IMO, also it is a pretty important race which suddenly doesn't get listed. Okay, let's try again, now with Et'Ada (which combines both Aedra and Daedra):

RacesEdit

Numerous races flourish across Nirn. Some are rare, others live in remote areas or dwell on different planes of existence, while others are believed to be purely mythical.

Overview | Man — Mer — Beastfolk — Akaviri — Ehlnofey — Hist — Et'Ada | Names | Languages

Now with Languages which I suggest to make a separate page which also seem appropriate. Phoenix Neko (talk) 17:27, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

I have no idea who came up with the categories, but as it stands, Aedra and Daedra are in the Races category and Et'Ada and Ehlnofey are in Gods, which is why I suggested [ Aedra — Daedra ] rather than [ Ehlnofey — Et'Ada ]. The Ehlnofey are a subdivision of Aedra, and Et'Ada are even more not a racial grouping than Aedra/Daedra, so I don't think they should be there, but whatever we use should match the Races page, since that is what the thing is supposed to summarise. Languages is already covered under the Linguistics section of the Appendices, so I don't think it's needed here. --Enodoc (talk) 12:11, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

Lore page for Lord Kain proposedEdit

Please see Daggerfall talk:Lord Kain#Lore page. — Darklocq ^☎ ¢ 12:25, 15 April 2018 (UTC)

Todd Howard's Order of PriorityEdit

This is being posted here for future reference:

1. In-game events viewed through the eyes of the player
2. A book published in-universe that can be read inside the game
3. An official work published outside of the game (examples given include the game manual and the official cookbook)

Todd also said anything stated by a fan (an example given was fan theories) would not go on the list. This would imply fanfiction and other unofficial works are non-canon and not to be considered a part of The Elder Scrolls lore or canon.--Rezalon (talk) 07:05, 4 June 2019 (UTC)

Try not to duplicate talk page discussions. I replied at General talk:Unofficial Lore. We should keep the discussion there.— Unsigned comment by Jeancey (talk • contribs) at 15:21 on 4 June 2019 UTC

Source for 'Starry Heart'?Edit

Can't find a reference for this. Notably, 'Starry Heart of Nirn' is a term that seems to apply strictly to Cyrodiil. Mindtrait0r (talk) 22:44, 28 August 2022 (UTC)

UESPWiki β

Lore talk:Main Page

Book AuthorsEdit

Need some consensus on these Skyrim NPCsEdit

Edit Break - UpdateEdit

Ref TemplateEdit

References in multi-topic articlesEdit

Add a new link ?Edit

Question concerning the map shownEdit

Bethesda's comments on canon/loreEdit

Proposed layout for "Races" subsectionEdit

RacesEdit

RacesEdit

RacesEdit

Lore page for Lord Kain proposedEdit

Todd Howard's Order of PriorityEdit

Source for 'Starry Heart'?Edit

UESPWiki ^β