Lore talk:Khajiit

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Archive 1: Mar 2007 - Feb 2012

Suthay and Suthay-raht distinctionEdit

Since no clear explanation of why Khajiit in morrowind look different to oblivion and skyrim (especially with regards to their beast legs) I took the liberty of placing them under "Suthay" instead of Suthay-raht and added the detail under Suthay that defines them as having beast legs.

While there is no sourced evidence to support this distinction, I could equally find no evidence to support the assertion that they were Suthay-raht (and according to the ohmes-raht entry, most khajiit are supposed to possess beast legs <though granted this assertion is not sourced either>). This way at least provides some explanation for their physiological difference until someone can replace it with a solid, sourced explanation.

62.150.124.202 18:24, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

In Morrowind, the Khajiits claim that they are Suthay-raht ("In Vvardenfell Khajiit are all Suthay-raht like me -- smart, quick, and agile.") This is evidence that they are Suthay-raht

other things that the Khajiits say in Morrowind that suggest they are Suthay-raht are "Suthay-raht make good jumpers and sneakers, but not good warriors like the Cathay-raht." and "Suthay-raht prefer claws to weapons. Fast and always ready."

I'm changing the Suthay to be discrived as similar but smaller to the Suthay. I'm changing the Suthay-raht to include Morrowind's Khajiits.

--70.194.15.149 19:31, 17 July 2012 (UTC), Woundedkneecap

Void Nights?Edit

Probably not the place for it, I was curious, has there been any information/sources explaining any effect on Khajiit dimorphism during the time of the void nights? Or did things continue as though the moons were still in place? 94.168.28.209 12:43, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

I never heard anything about it and in Skyrim the Khajiits seem to be normal so I would say no. Although if you go through the lore pages you might find something but I don't think so. RIM 15:08, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

S'rendarr / Stendarr?Edit

"Nothing is known of S'rendarr, save that the Khajiit revere him as the God of Mercy." Seems like an obvious parallel to the Nordic god Stendarr. Is this intentionally left unstated on the page, e.g. due to lack of in-game evidence? 206.116.154.115 00:03, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

The Lore page on gods does state that they are the same god. In fact, many of the gods on this page have parallels to other gods, and none of them are stated. Additionally, none of them redirect to their respective sections on the other lore pages. Before I fix this, I would like some clarification as to whether this is intentional or nobody noticed. The descriptions for the gods on this page seem more like in-game descriptions instead of wiki material. APSX3427 (talk) 02:48, 3 May 2013 (GMT)

They should have separate sections in the gods section, to be completely honest. They are clearly the same deity, but they are as different as Mars and Ares or Zeus and Jupiter. Therefore we must treat them as separate. We are likely to get more information on the different versions of each god in ESO. Jeancey (talk) 21:01, 3 May 2013 (GMT)

Etymological NoteEdit

Browsing the page anonymously at first, I saw a specific part mentioned under the Etymological Note regarding the nature of the Khajiit, which I decide to change, as aforementioned, anonymously. Quite a bold statement to be made, since it's basically my first contribution, but I was wondering, since there is no verb in the English language (desert) that elaborates on the point the Khajjiti language is trying to convey, should it be reverted back? Taking into account of course, that the suffix -iit defines one's occupation or residence, it could be possibly changed to stress out the desert as the area in which Khajiit live. --Lupus 20:33, 19 May 2012 (UTC)

The page says that "desert" is in this case related to the noun "desert". Actually, on this page, it is stated that iit means to walk, so Khajiit could literally mean desert-walker in Ta'agra. I don't know where someone got "one who deserts" from, and I haven't been able to find anything through a lore search. Vely^{►Talk►Email} 23:03, 19 May 2012 (UTC)

What strikes me the most is, that above, in the suffix and prefix list, next to the -iit suffix is stated that it defines one's area of residence or one's work. It comes as much as a contradiction to the walker definition mentioned above by Vely here. On top of this, the phrase one who deserts simply makes no sense, even with the explanation next to it, no? So, should that part be reworked, looked into, or deleted altogether?

Note: I undersatand that *desert* in this case, is related to the noun, but seeing that we're trying to correctly translate it, shouldn't it at least, follow a correct format, which could be faciliated by, let's say periphrasis. --Lupus 10:45, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

If we can figure out what dialogue or book the information came from, that would be best. Vely^{►Talk►Email} 14:37, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

Legoless reverted my change last, so I suppose he may be aware of its true source?--Lupus 17:27, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

I do not know if he does or not, but "one who deserts" is probably not the same as "one who lives or resides in a desert"--desert-walker is the best translation I can see, based on our current article on Ehlnofex languages. Vely^{►Talk►Email} 17:52, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

This was based on the explanation of the -iit suffix right above the Etymological Note ("-iit" is used to state where one lives, and is also used to define one's job.) But as I said before this goes against the definition of the -iit suffix as seen on the Ehlnofex language article chart. --Lupus 18:18, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

Anthropomorphism VS TherianthropyEdit

I'd like to debate which of the two would better suit Khajiit in the opening of the page. Therianthropy refers to the metamorphism of humans into other animals, while anthropomorphism refers to human characteristics within another animal. Since Khajiit do not start as human and turn into another animal (for example like that of a Werewolf) they are not truly Therianthropic. Instead they are humanoid felines, thus falling more under the Anthropomorphic category. A quote from Wikipedia about therianthropy: "Therianthropes are said to change forms via shapeshifting." which proves that Khajiit, whom are born already in a humanoid feline form, are not Therianthropes. I bring this here in case people can prove otherwise.--Dro'Bakha (talk) 04:30, 17 October 2012 (GMT)

No they are not humanoid felines. They are feline Mer. i.e. not felines with human characteristics, but "humans" (mer) with feline characteristics.--98.234.113.80 20:58, 26 April 2013 (GMT)

Two things, One, humans and Mer are different. Two, do you have evidence to support that they are not humanoid felines? Jeancey (talk) 21:03, 26 April 2013 (GMT)

Technically half of the Khajiit subspecies are not humanoid. :P And both mer and humans are humanoid so that's not wrong either.

And yes Anthropomorphism is correct. Therianthropy is the catch-all term for all types of were creatures, being Lycanthropy(wolves) one of them.--Ashendant (talk) 10:40, 3 May 2013 (GMT)

AlfiqEdit

Do we have any real reason to believe the Alfiq are Khajiits? If the only sources on them are Mixed Unit Tactics and Ahzirr Traajijazeri, I think the only logical thing to do is move them to the bestiary unless and until we learn more. Minor Edits^{Threats•Evidence} 05:07, 7 June 2013 (GMT)

Check this, Lore:Pocket Guide to the Empire, 1st Edition/The Elsweyr Confederacy. 72.188.202.7 02:47, 4 November 2013 (GMT)

There is no reference to them there.--AKB ^{Talk Cont Mail} 03:09, 4 November 2013 (GMT)

It's the line "while one born under the opposite conditions will be little more than an intelligent house-cat." (and house-cat is linked to Alfiq) added to Mixed Units line of "a few ordinary cats among the Dagi and even claimed that these ordinary cats are known as 'Alfiq'". While its not entirely clear I can accept it. Silence is Golden^{Break the Silence} 16:17, 4 November 2013 (GMT)

Ctrl + F has failed me, darn it. :) I'm willing to accept the information as well, then. --AKB ^{Talk Cont Mail} 18:55, 4 November 2013 (GMT)

OB and SR Suthay-raht or CathayEdit

There is no evidence in the games for which sub-species is found in Oblivion and Skyrim, so I removed that detail for now. In fact, the info was added by an anonymous user who stated on this very page that "While there is no sourced evidence to support this distinction...". Facts only, no original research, which is what this seems to be. Silence is Golden^{Break the Silence} 21:35, 15 August 2013 (GMT)

I seem to recall something about it in oblivion.... Let me look into it. Jeancey (talk) 22:07, 15 August 2013 (GMT)

Dune?Edit

Just wondering has anyone else noted the parallel between the khajiit lore and Dune. Spice/moonsugar, Mane/tyrant, Clan mothers/Revered mother, etc. Grigs (talk) 03:39, 4 November 2013 (GMT)

That seems a very simplistic connection, all societies have similar aspects. Silence is Golden^{Break the Silence} 15:47, 4 November 2013 (GMT)

A physiologically unique power-head who is moved about on a cart, is not a common aspect of society. All of these aspects I list and other share such detailed parallels, though I havent elaborated on them cause I assume anyone who read the two will see them clearly. Grigs (talk) 23:52, 10 November 2013 (GMT)

I really, really, really had to stretch my imagination to see any sort of connection. Many societies carry the ruler around, often on carts or carriages, and there are many aspects of dune that aren't seen in khajiit society. Khajiit is a typical desert-based nomadic matriarchal society. Desert nomads were well known for caravans (as are khajiit) and often as smugglers. I see no real connection to the Dune series here. Jeancey (talk) 00:08, 11 November 2013 (GMT)

PahmarEdit

There is no evidence in any lore book I've read that suggests the Pahmar or Pahmar-raht are quadrapedal. The only thing I've found is that they are tiger like in appearance. — Unsigned comment by 66.175.157.111 (talk) at 16:19 on 15 February 2014

BloodmoonEdit

Is there any information on what Khajiit would look like if born under Hircine's Bloodmoon? The Bloodmoon requires Secunda to be full, if that makes any difference. — Unsigned comment by 86.147.116.206 (talk) at 09:21 on 16 February 2015

I don't think the Bloodmoon affects ja'Kha'jay; if Secunda must be full, then you would get one of four forms depending on the phase of Masser: Senche, Cathay, Ohmes or Alfiq. --Enodoc (talk) 17:57, 16 February 2015 (GMT)

Ta'agra, khajiit languageEdit

On linguistics pages, Ta'agra is not mentioned as the kajiit language. I'm new to this, so I can only request somebody creates a page for the kajiit language. 107.77.90.53 20:09, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

"Khajjit rarely take to sea"Edit

It is said in several books across Oblivion and Skyrim that Khajiit are known for sailing ability and khajiit used to make up the thick of the imperial navy. In Skyrim, this can be seen at the Solitude lighthouse, and the various shipwrecks that washed ashore from the sea of ghost are mostly inhabited by khajiit and argonions. — Unsigned comment by 107.77.90.53 (talk) at 20:16 on 6 August 2015 (GMT)

I've tweaked the wording slightly. We (apparently) have a direct source stating that the Khajiit as a race tend to avoid the sea. Many exceptions do exist in the games, the most major one probably being the Renrijra Maor, but it's important to bear in mind that the Khajiit race covers all the different furstocks. A couple Suthay-raht sailors isn't really enough evidence to assume a retcon. —Legoless (talk) 21:24, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

"Magic does not come easily to Khajiit, and requires strenuous training."Edit

If there are no sources to this then why is it included?--MageoftheMarsh 06:31, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for drawing attention to this. I've removed the line. I'm not completely familiar with Khajiit lore, but I glanced through their racial effects from Morrowind on, and nothing implies that they have difficulty learning or using magic. The "citation needed" has been there for over a year, so there's been plenty of time for someone to fill it. —Proton^[talk] 08:45, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

In Skyrim, J'zargo says: "Khajiit are not known as mages, so J'zargo has much to prove." All I could find on the topic. —Legoless (talk) 12:09, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Until and unless we subject our Khajiit characters to arduous testing, the note will never be proven as a true one. DRAGON GUARD^(TALK) 20:24, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Player testing in this case would only be subjective because the only 'hard' part of playing a Khajiit as a mage is that Khajiit are built stat-wise as stealth characters. That being said, J'zargo's dialog provides the information that we have and Legoless' note is representative of what he said and takes care of the issue. •WoahBro^►talk

Nice job on finding that reference. I didn't think about J'zargo.--MageoftheMarsh 03:24, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

MerEdit

Shouldn't the Khajiit be added to the Mer category? ESO basically confirmed that they're merish. ChildofKyne (talk) 01:35, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

Where did it confirm this? Khajiit are Betmer, and the elf theory is more of a what-if than anything. —Legoless (talk) 02:54, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

Ahzirr TraajijazeriEdit

So... Based on the translation guide right above the section, the Renrijra Krin would translate to "laughing (or grinning) scum lords" or perhaps "laughing (or grinning) honoured scum??"

EDIT: After rereading the book, I think a better translation would be the "Laughing (or grinning) Honoured Landless" 173.179.41.60 06:12, 17 March 2016 (UTC)

JahEdit

Based on Nabina-ko's dialogue, I think this word is a Ta'agra word meaning "money". It's not a complete certainty, but it may be worth noting down somewhere. —Dillonn241 (talk) 07:09, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

It can probably be added to the Ta'agra section, as the meaning seems quite apparent; but as the word "money" isn't really used in Tamriel, "gold (currency)" might be a better translation. A real Ta'agra page really needs to be made at some point; but there might not be enough information to do that yet. —Aran Anumarile Autaracu Alatasel (talk) 07:32, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

Yes, adding it to that section was my intention. I've added it with a reference for now, but I agree that Lore:Ta'agra should be its own page. There is some dialogue with subtitles (but not Ta'agra subtitles) from S'rathra in Redguard that may be usable as well. —Dillonn241 (talk) 07:40, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

According to the subtitles under S'rathra's ta'agra dialog in the Redguard cinematics, "imperial jah" is translated as "imperial coin"90.103.148.79 17:40, 18 August 2018 (UTC)

Good catch! I never really tried comparing what S'rathra actually says to the short list here. Perhaps other words could be added with approximate spellings somewhere; one example is "sicho" meaning "sit". That's just my guess at how it's spelled, of course. —Dillonn241 (talk) 20:23, 18 August 2018 (UTC)

The Khajiit of TESVEdit

- Since in Skyrim the Khajiit are clearly plantigrade, they have to be either Cathay or Cathay-raht, unless there's another feline-looking plantigrade we don't know about. — Unsigned comment by 108.180.149.202 (talk) at 00:23 on 19 August 2018 UTC

There is not one lore or even unofficial lore source covering this hypothesis until now. Skotharr-do (talk) 00:43, 23 September 2018 (UTC)

Khajit Fashion/BudiEdit

The fourth paragraph in the society section of the page has no sources to reinforce the claim that the showing of torso fur is considered shameful. -Breakfast— Unsigned comment by Breakfast (talk • contribs) at 16:05 on 18 February 2019 (UTC)

Corrected. Thank you for pointing that out!--Rook (talk) 21:21, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

Inclusion of S'rathra in the Suthay-raht Gallery SectionEdit

S'rathra, a Suthay-raht from redguard

Recently, the image of S'rathra was removed from the Suthay-raht section in Morphology. Me and AKB discussed this in the discord but his stance is that "Those sections do not need to be exhaustive depictions of every appearance of a Suthay-raht." but he was fine with it being put in the very bottom gallery. Normally I would be ok with this, but S'rathra is specifically a Suthay-raht in his character biography. The bottom gallery is currently occupied by the furstocks that we cannot place in a specific furstock section due to them not being confirmed. Why move a confirmed furstock game appearance there? S'rathra is an important depiction because he is the earliest depiction of a Suthay-raht, and having each furstock depiction per game while is unnecessary, is great imo for the casual reading session that our site visitors have. Imagine how great it is for the casual reader to see how far tes has come and how khajiit have evolved cross game? The average reader isn't going to know where to look and what game depicted what race, and visuals are the best to showcase that. Please don't make it harder to access this information by making it so that to see how a suthay-raht looked like in redguard youd have to go past the section that is actually based on that. Redguard is already a pretty obscure elder scrolls game to the more modern fans of the tes series, and needs more love, please keep this depiction on the spotlight in the suthay-raht section so people can learn of it. — Unsigned comment by Zebendal (talk • contribs) at 06:28 on 27 January 2020 (GMT)

There is already a section on each main race lore page which allows for a depiction from every game, the bottom gallery. It doesn't benefit the average reader having the article broken up by a giant wall of images to depict every single confirmed version. It is most likely distracting, as the reader was looking for information, and having a giant gallery for every section isn't beneficial. We have gamespace articles for game-specific depictions as well as the final gallery for this purpose. The body of the article should use the best image depictions available, not try to depict them exhaustively. To go further, linking to it in text is much more useful than just having an image with some minor context included, if we were interested in increasing people's interests in older games. However, the primary purpose of the lore section is to provide information, not advertise any single specific game. --AKB ^{Talk Cont Mail} 06:28, 27 January 2020 (GMT)

I think the Redguard depiction should be on the page, its the first actual time a Khajiit's stock was ever specified, and until ESO, was one of the very few times at all, it's not even a bad quality image since its a 3d model in a sense. Imperialbattlespire (talk) 23:00, 28 January 2020 (GMT)

Having too many images on the page makes it harder to read. Too many images on the page is distracting and takes your eyes away from the meat of the article. I understand the drive to have a depiction from every game on a lore page, but this page is already too crowded as is. --MolagBallet (talk) 21:56, 2 February 2020 (GMT)

The importance of a Redguard Khajiit can't be understated, as that was the starting point of Khajiit going from men to feline cats in all their appearances. However, the galleries for the furstocks have been gradually getting clogged up with images ever since Legends and eso started to depict them.

I was thinking of suggesting this a while back (even before this discussion came up, mind you) but I never got around to it until now: each furstock that has appeared in a game should get its own lore article. I created Template:Subraces some months ago as a means of taking care of goblin-ken and naga on the primary navigation template but I added Khajiit furstocks just in case they get their own articles, which it now seems they urgently do. Tes Wiki already has separate articles, and each one that appears in eso already gets their own page; if we don't split them off we're on track to ending up with another Lore:Wars scenario where everything combined onto one page hinders readability and detailed information

Why should we create separate articles, you ask? Aren't they all Khajiit anyways and technically the same race? Yes, but the purpose of furstocks was to show how widely different they were, and to address the retcon in their cat-like appearances. Initially, we only had about 2 or 3 furstocks show up in games, which is why they all got listed here, but in just the past year we have a dozen of them show up in game (10 throughout the main series and eso, 2 only as cards in Legends, and 4 missing depictions outside of statues). Putting them all on the same page will no longer continue to work.

With separate articles, we can put as many relevant images as we want in the galleries and go more in-depth on their information, rather than confining it to a single, jammed-up paragraph. Looking at the Alfiq section being expanded so much since eso alone it's clear making a separate article and transcluding it would clean up that section a whole lot. We could also keep much better track of their edit history, you can barely tell who's editing what since there's so much on the Khajiit page already.

There's a lot of benefits to making this change but most importantly to this discussion, we can reduce the photo for each furstock down to just 1 image (that includes removing the moon phases by section and putting them on furstock articles instead, we should re-add the moon matrix table we had a year ago since it looked so much better and was far easier to understand). Let's make a few new articles and see how much it improves the page, and that way we can decide whether we like them better and make everybody on both sides happy with the results. The Rim of the Sky (talk) 00:02, 3 February 2020 (GMT)

I fully support the inclusion of depictions of each furstock in the various games, particularly in the case of Redguard given what we know about Paradise Sugar. —Legoless (talk) 00:52, 3 February 2020 (GMT)

Family sizeEdit

Does anyone know the average family size of Khajiit families? And do they usually have litters or is their birth rate more comparable to the other races, whatever theirs are? Or is this entirely the wrong place to ask this?

You are best visiting the UESP discord to ask questions about this.Zebendal (talk) 05:13, 27 February 2020 (GMT)

Ok, thanks.

Religion SectionEdit

The Religion section on this page is overly long and is dominating the rest of the content. I think it should be split off onto its own page at this stage. See Lore:Dunmer and Lore:Tribunal Temple for an example of this. --AKB ^{Talk Cont Mail} 14:03, 22 January 2021 (UTC)

So for Religion, you are including both the origin and the pantheon? If so, I propose it looks like this when we link from the Khajiit lore page.

'''--Religion--'''

A monomythic society, the Khajiit are educated in their beliefs by the figures within their communities known as "Clan Mothers", whose duty it is to disseminate the cultural myths among their kind, and who maintain autonomy from the Mane and the disparate tribal leaders.{{ref|name=WOCMA|{{Cite Book|Words of Clan Mother Ahnissi}}}}

The Khajiiti pantheon encompasses myriad [[Lore:Aedra|Aedric]] and [[Lore:Daedric Princes|Daedric]] gods,{{ref|name=CHAYQ|{{Cite Book|Chamberlain Haskill Answers Your Questions}}}} which are recognized as spirits,{{ref|name=ESOSB|[[Online:Antiquity Furnishings#Shrine of Boethra|Shrine of Boethra]] furnishing codex from [[ON:Online|ESO]]}} a fraction of which are detailed below. Various gods rose and fell out of prominence over the eras due to events and cultural changes. Indeed, after the unification of Anequina and Pellitine into one kingdom, and the event known as the Riddle'Thar Epiphany, the Riddle'Thar cult would rise and scrub many of these spirits from the Khajiit pantheon,{{ref|name=ESOSB}} and those that refused to follow the new edicts of the Ephiphany faced persecution.{{ref|name=ESOClawStrike|[[Online:Claw's Strike|Claw's Strike]] Loading Screen Text}}

Among this Pantheon are the two litter-mates, [[Lore:Ahnurr|Ahnurr]] and [[Lore:Fadomai|Fadomai]], which the Khajiit believe life originated from.{{ref|name=WOCMA}} For more information

''→ See main article: '''[[Lore:Khajiit Religion|Khajiit Religion]]'''''

— Unsigned comment by Zebendal (talk • contribs) at 22:48 on 22 January 2021 (UTC)

Daggerfall KhajiitEdit

"Daggerfall either uses Ohmes or Ohmes-raht as playable Khajiit, but it has not yet been confirmed which one is used." Does one really need an official confirmation? Wouldn't the game art be sufficient? DF Khajiit guy, note the tail and the fur. Perfectly human-looking other than these two details. Compare with ESO's Ohmes-Raht statue, which is clearly a tailed human. I'll note in passing that the Kirkbride quote about "those nightmarish tailed humans in DF and Arena" was clearly an imperfect recollection, as the Arena Khajiit do not have a tail; only the DF Khajiit do. ---Gez (talk) 22:07, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

I agree that Daggerfall's furstock is clearly meant to represent Ohmes-raht by ESO's standards, but strict wiki policies prevent us from stating the obvious. A similar situation happened when we tried to get Nahfahlaar and Nafaalilargus' page merged, but the opposition forced a fellow editor to circumvent this and ask the loremaster himself. What occurred was a victory for those of us that saw that they were infact the same dragon, but at the cost of the loremaster getting in trouble since I believe since he isn't supposed to answer questions directly. And so now there is a policy against asking devs directly to resolve these issues.- Zebendal (talk) 22:20, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

To further support the claim, Kirkbride says in a different comment "The only reason Ohmes even exist was so I could explain away the Arena and Daggerfall khajiit." so they're no doubt either Ohmes or Ohmes-raht. However, I don't support us stating that the DF Khajiit were definitely Ohmes-raht based on the eso statue. While I agree it's the more likely scenario, the Ohmes have evidentally had other changes in their appearance from 1996 thanks to the statue; for all we know, they might retcon standard Ohmes as having tails too, so I'm hesitant to say DF was 100% Ohmes-raht, they're just 100% one of the Ohmes. The Rim of the Sky (talk) 00:50, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

I agree with the above, the Ohmes is fine, but we never received direction confirmation for Ohmes-raht. --AKB ^{Talk Cont Mail} 02:25, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

We actually do have direct distinction and traits between the two variants of Ohmes and this I do consider to be a confirmation so you guys are not exactly right about this and I've explained why down below. Todd Howard was part of this Uol. So I'd treat it like word of god type thing its also the confirmation that pairs with the MK Source. Which outright confirms it. https://www.imperial-library.info/content/interviews-3-booksellers

When Masser is new and Secunda is full, the Ohmes is born. They are like the Bosmer, but sometimes shorter. Many Ohmes tattoo their faces to show they are Khajiit.

When Masser is new and Secunda is waxing, the Ohmes-raht is born. They have light fur and a tail, but they walk on their heels like men, and can be mistaken for men at a distance.

What is distinct is it does not say Ohmes have a tail but it clearly mentions the Ohmes-Raht do in its description. I mean the devs outright state the distinction. Ohme's look exactly like bosmers you can't tell the difference if they had tails they wouldn't need face paint. Ohmes-Raht have 100% the characteristics of the Daggerfall Khajiit. The Statue looking exactly like the Khajiit seen in Daggerfall speaks for itself as well and it even confirms that the breed seen in Daggerfall is an Ohme-Raht. Even by chance we can't mention it directly. Its quite clear and very canon that the Daggerfall Breed is an Ohmes-Raht. So I don't think it really matters if the daggerfall pictures say they are Ohmes-Raht or just khajiit as they clearly are Khajiit. Anyone that knows their lore will know its a Ohmes-Raht. As for the concept art, that could be the Ohmes since that has a tail but we don't need to do anything with that. But we have enough evidence to call the Daggerfall Khajiit Ohmes-Raht. As Mk does say they are an Ohmes and the interview involving Todd Howard gives us a distinct difference between the two versions of the Ohmes. And clearly the Daggerfall version don't look anything like Arena Ohmes. TheVampKnight (talk) 05:37, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

To put a quote to what Vamp is saying, as per the Interview With Three Booksellers "When Masser is new and Secunda is waxing, the Ohmes-raht is born. They have light fur and a tail, but they walk on their heels like men, and can be mistaken for men at a distance." Notice it mentions a tail and it looks like man, just like the Daggerfall Khajiit and Ohmes-Raht statue. "When Masser is new and Secunda is full, the Ohmes is born. They are like the Bosmer, but sometimes shorter. Many Ohmes tattoo their faces to show they are Khajiit." On Ohmes, there is no mention of a tail at all, and regular Ohmes are consistent to how they were portrayed as in their Arena Design.- Zebendal (talk) 07:28, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

After seeing the note and taking a look at it and seeing maybe that is what this section was talking about. I outright changed it it just looked really bad and its better to not have it like it was before and not include a note for it at all then to have a note that is entirely inaccurate. All Evidence and even a statue in Eso confirms its the Ohmes-raht breed by description. Human with a tail is what an Ohmes-raht look like. I did however avoid saying its in fact the furstock by writing it in such away that says it matches the lore characteristics of the Ohmes-Raht. That way its a bit of a middle ground basically. — Unsigned comment by TheVampKnight (talk • contribs) at 11:11 on 24 January 2021 (UTC)

(←) ESO doesn't confirm anything. This is all speculation being done because "they look similar". Just because we think the statue and the Daggerfall Khajiit are the same thing doesn't mean they are the same thing. The Ohmes description may not mention a tail, but that doesn't explicitly mean they "don't have tails". See our policy on original research. "Even if a series of statements can logically be put together to reach a conclusion, that conclusion does not belong on UESP unless it has already been stated elsewhere (in valid source material)." -MolagBallet (talk) 18:26, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

Ohmes do not have any feline traits whatsoever. They have no dermal fur and no tails. The source for this is arena and has never been conflicted. There’s no argument for the arena depiction being outdated or anything of the like. Furthermore this is how they are described in three booksellers, and Tuttle claimed in the ama that we might have already seen ohmes in eso we just wouldn’t know it because they are essentially indistinguishable from bosmer. Let’s stop ignoring the source material and start acting more encyclopedic friends!Dcking20 (talk) 19:44, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

While I agree they're probably they same thing, the big issue is the massive shifts in artstyle that have continued to occur between the games. Look at Barenziah's sprite in Daggerfall and tell me that's a Dunmer, for instance. It's kind of impossible to assume anything based only on appearance similarities between Daggerfall sprites and ESO statues. Jacksol (talk) 05:00, 26 January 2021 (UTC)

Star Haven AdeptsEdit

We need to make mention of these two clearly sapient martial artists found among their fellow Khajiiti adepts at Star Haven Adeptorium. I know there is a disclaimer on both images to not assume either are Senche furstock, but I don't see any other possibility. They are clearly not Senche-raht since they look like regular big cats rather than the Senche-raht model used in ESO. There is only one other quadrupedal furstock and that is the Senche.

Just to head off any claims of original research: it is not speculation to correctly identify these creatures as Khajiit, given the context in which they are found. They are the only Khajiit we know of which look like this and are worthy of inclusion on the lorepage. The only question that remains is how best to note this. Personally I would prefer to note them under the Senche section as possible examples of the furstock. Alternatively, we could take the same approach as the gamespace article, which describes them as "a Star Haven Adept that looks like a striped senche-panther / a white lioness". A similar approach would work here if we want to just mention them in the Notes section; I'm open to wording suggestions. —⁠Legoless (talk) 18:49, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

couldn’t agree with this anymore, time to acknowledge that these Senche Khajiit are indeed senche Khajiit. They can’t be “adepts” otherwise.Dcking20 (talk) 19:44, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

Agreed. I don't see why they'd be called adepts if they weren't sapient. -MolagBallet (talk) 20:15, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

We should take a different approach to this one. Leamon Tuttle was given the opportunity to answer this question when asked by TJ, yet he chose to answer different questions and not that one. He also didn't answer when Legoless asked, Additionally, Legoless asked this "Are there any senche Khajiit in the Elsweyr chapter (as opposed to senche-rahts)? During the tutorial there are Star Haven Adepts who appear to be sentient senches.", and Leamon Tuttle responded with "We allow players to interact with Senche-Raht. The zone is full of senche-tigers as well, which are not actually Khajiit." So it seems like either there are NO regular Senches in Elsweyr, or the intention of the Loremaster is to have it up in the air. Therefore at the most, it should be left as a note along with Leamon's comment, and not integrated in the main body of the article.- Zebendal (talk) 21:11, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

Unlike the Ohmes-Raht which has multiple sources that verify what it is indirectly through several sources. We have nothing of the sort for these Senches that stating they are directly or indirectly. However I do agree they are of the furstock, and I do think some of the ones we see with Khajiit in other areas of Eso are of the furstock. However suggesting if any of these ones are of the furstock would be original research as we have no verification in any sources whatso ever. What makes this so hard too is because of the fact that they really messed up base game with them and calling non intelligent tigers Senche. Because of that and because the devs refuse to answer that question. We just cannot really tell or not unless they gave us the option to actually speak to those adapts where they talked back and they didn't. Looking at this page, I think we shouldn't because one of them does look like a senche panther but the other one looks like a white lioness https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Star_Haven_Adept . Because of the unique circumstances with this. I think we do need some form of sourcing that says they are of the furstock before we do anything. TheVampKnight (talk) 23:02, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

They're adepts, Vamp. They're clearly explicitly sapient from that alone. Also, Tuttles statement there is vague and doesn't actually mention Star Haven at all, really, instead only mentioning the enemies we run into. He doesn't rule out any normal senche from having a cameo. Until we're told otherwise the only assumption we can make is that they are members of the monestary. The title is sourcing enough for them to be senche, especially considering the lack of any other furstock for them to fit under... Unless the Alfiq-Raht are REAL beefy..... Jacksol (talk) 04:45, 26 January 2021 (UTC)

Consider Senche-Cat's role in Khajiiti society. They are treated essentially like how humans treat their dogs. Some even go as far as treat them like they do humans. In a real world context, people even claim that their pets are part of their family, yet are not actually related by blood.

See how Cinder-Tail and other NPCs interact with their Senche. Like how Cinder-Tail says, "You let rats get the better of you? And you call yourself warriors!" Clearly the Senche are not warriors, they are just animals. Yet he continues to speak to them as if they were people who could talk back.

Lastly, clearly Treethane Scratchbelly is a Treethane! If titles are enough to verify something, then this Senche is a Treethane, which are Bosmer leaders. So therefore, he runs the "village" of Sleepy Senche Overlook alongside the esteemed Lady Slumberbear. Guarding the Online:Laughing Moons Plantation is the Senche-Cat Sayya-daro, and According to Khajiit Names, -daro means "Most ancient title; nimble fingered, lithe of tongue, inquisitive, acquisitive, clever". So we have a Khajiiti example of a Senche with a title.Zebendal (talk) 05:31, 26 January 2021 (UTC)

'Treethane Scratchbelly' and 'Lady Slumberbear' are clearly petnames, 'Starhaven Adept' is not a petname. Examples of people anthropomorphizing their pets does not change the fact these are clearly students of the adeptorium. Also, Daro is a descriptive title which can be given to any animal, based on that definition. Adept is not. Jacksol (talk) 05:36, 26 January 2021 (UTC)

I do have to agree with Zeb but I can also see the point with the name Adapt being strange and distinct from that. But Zeb does give some good examples of the pet naming thing and treatment like people that can't actually be ignored. Plus there is the Senche shown in Legends that does not seem to be a similar model to any of the in game Senches but it does seem to have similarities to the in game Senche-Rahts but with a unique taft of fur at the end of the tail (Does not count the Senches Beard but it isn't all that bad for a beard if I had to say so and yes I know about the asset reuse in Eso that makes it possible the ones in that area are of the furstock and there is a good chance they are of it). Right now there is no way to know if they are of the furstock or one of the non sentient variants, and worse they are not shown to talk at all so we cannot tell or not. Maybe the Devs intended them to represent them but I don't know. If they did then we would have had several npcs with them used for that, plus maybe unique outfits for them. I'm guessing the devs just put those in there as filler. We can say they are, but its preferable to have some confirmation, so its fine with whatever the majority believes is the best course of action. If the community thinks they should be called the Senche Furstock then we should call them that. TheVampKnight (talk) 05:59, 26 January 2021 (UTC)

Plural form?Edit

What is the correct plural form for Khajiit? Khajiits? Khajiiti? Khajiit?Pacingpal (talk) 16:20, 1 April 2021 (UTC)

Khajiit is the most common plural form and is the preferred spelling on this wiki, but "Khajiits" has been used some in-game books. "Khajiiti" is primarily used as an adjective.Rook (talk) 16:29, 1 April 2021 (UTC)

Lunar Lattice RedirectEdit

Both "Lunar Lattice" and "ja-Kha'jay" redirect to this page's Morphology section. While Khajiiti morphology is obviously tied to the Lunar Lattice, they're not the same thing. I think the Lunr Lattice/ja-Kha'jay should have its own page. Fyraltari (talk) 17:08, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

Definitely. The redirect is just a stopgap. —Dillonn241 (talk) 23:36, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

Lol, I came to the page to mention this. Need to do some info collecting.--Talyyn (talk) 00:54, 24 October 2024 (UTC)