Lore talk:Orc

Orsimer or Orc?Edit

This page has been recently moved from Lore:Orc to Lore:Orsimer to reflect the fact, I beleive, that the Orcs were once called Orsimer. Even though this was the ancient name for the Orcs, they are currently known as Orcs, with very little reference to the ancient name in the games (at least in Morrowind:Morrowind). Therefore, I would suggest moving this page back to Lore:Orc to make a clear connection between the games and this wiki. --DrPhoton 11:04, 2 July 2006 (EDT)

There is a redirect, and the first sentence states that Orsimer are more commonly known as Orc, so it seems like anyone looking for information on Orcs should end up here and not be confused. Although in Oblivion:Oblivion as well Orc is used almost exclusively, I don't see any harm in having this page called Orsimer.--Nephele 11:22, 2 July 2006 (EDT)

Given the lack of response, except Nephele's, who doesn't have a strong opinion, I have decided to move this page back to Lore:Orc. As stated above, this move was done to reflect the fact that this race is almost exclusively known as Orc throughout the games, and the term Orsimer only appears in books, such as The True Nature of Orcs. --DrPhoton 08:17, 13 July 2006 (EDT)

Orc back to OrsimerEdit

I would like to change the article heading of "Orc" back to "Orsimer". This would better suit their placement in the category of "Mer", and is - in fact - their proper name. As we refer to every other species of elf under their proper name, I see no reason to refrain from doing so in this case. Any objections? -- Booyah boy 01:02, 29 August 2006 (EDT)

This page has already been renamed, then reversed once, as documented in the above discussion and on the page's history. I really think a strong consensus is needed before the page gets renamed yet again. I don't personally have a strong preference either way, I just don't want to see the page renamed every month. --Nephele 02:11, 29 August 2006 (EDT)

Aye, I looked over the history ere posting my comments (hence the "back to Orsimer"), and still emphatically support a page name of Tamriel:Orsimer. The title of Orsimer is the proper name, the term "Orc" being that which other races call them (for instance, the Dwemer are often called Dwarves, however, the correct name remains Dwemer, hence the article is entitled such; in another example, the currency of the Third Empire may colloquially be known as a drake, and yet were an article written concerning such it would be given the proper name of septim). Ultimately, it is a matter not of preference, but of accuracy. -- Booyah boy 04:20, 29 August 2006 (EDT)

Though I see why you wnat to change this back to Orsimer, I repeat again that this race is known almost exclusively as Orc in the game, except for a couple of books where the word Orsimer appears. So I think this article should remain as it is, so that people can find it easily (they'll be looking for Orc, not Orsimer) and for consistency with the rest of the wiki (where they are referred to as Orcs). --DrPhoton 06:49, 29 August 2006 (EDT)

I will admit that the title of "Orc" is that most commonly used in-game, however, so too (to repeat my analogy) is the currency referred to as "drakes" and "gold", yet it remains (properly) a "septim". Insofar as the ability to locate the article is concerned, I see no reason a redirect (or whatever else is necessary) could not be instituted to lead those searching for "orc" to the Orsimer page; furthermore, reading the first line of the current article would dispel any confusion as to the articles premise, and the article I am preparing to overwrite such also includes the information that the "Orsimer" are commonly known as "Orcs". Coupled together, I cannot help but maintain that - for the sake of accuracy, if nothing else - the article ought to be entitled Tamriel:Orsimer. -- Booyah boy 07:09, 29 August 2006 (EDT)

My take on it is that "Orsimer" is a dead word. Nobody uses it anymore. Unlike "Altmer", "Bosmer", and "Dunmer", which are very much still in use (despite the increasing prevalence of "High Elf", "Wood Elf", and "Dark Elf"), Orcs are almost exclusively referred to as "Orcs", and every source that uses the term "Orsimer" is very old and out-dated. Likewise, "septims" are still commonly used, even if "drakes" or "gold" are more common. "Orsimer" is not. I can only think of a couple of books where the word is mentionned at all. Plus, it literally translates to "Pariah People", hardly a flattering term or a name to be proud of. It's almost an epithet, I'd think. Basically saying "you are the people who are shunned". No Orc would want to be thought of in that way. Like the 'N'-word. Not something you go around saying in public. --TheRealLurlock 09:40, 29 August 2006 (EDT)

My original reason for the naming of the page as Orsimer was for standardisation. Trying to have all races (and similar types of pages) use their original form was simply an attempt at creating a standard. Having a link from Orc (and similar pages having links from High Elf, etc) would continue the standard without causing any confusion. This wiki attempts to be an encyclopaedia, and as such the orginal form of a name should be the "main" one, with all other derivatives pointing back to it. What a word translates too is irrelevant, and I suspect that Orc elders would prefer to be known by their ancient and original race name of Orsimer. — Endareth^Talk 21:21, 3 December 2006 (EST)

O comeon I didn't even know they were called orcs intell know muchless that they were mer just say they are mer and orismer on the article but not the title please.

And there's probebly a reason poeple call them Orcs probly because Orismer is more of a curse of a name and calling them that risks you being assulted. Some dude — Unsigned comment by 71.105.88.130 (talk) at 19:17 on 25 October 2007

My vote is for the page to remain at 'Orc'. If it's standardisation we are talking about, in virtually all cases the standard name for something on this site is what it is called in the game(s). In this case, the games almost universally refer to this race as 'Orcs'.--Gaebrial 15:46, 25 October 2007 (EDT)

I think the fact that the debate had gone 10 months without being progressed indicates that keeping things as they are was already the preferred option. I would to suggest that our anonymous friend at 71.105.88.130 looks at dates before posting! I'd normally make a comment about the spelling too, but in this case I think it's too far gone for any help to make much of a difference. --Rpeh^{•T•C•E•} 05:20, 26 October 2007 (EDT)

You can carrect my spelling if you went to. some dude — Unsigned comment by 71.105.88.130 (talk) at 20:39 on 3 November 2007‎

"Plus, it literally translates to "Pariah People", hardly a flattering term or a name to be proud of. It's almost an epithet, I'd think. Basically saying "you are the people who are shunned". No Orc would want to be thought of in that way." - Old comment, I know, but - why not? They worship Malacath, after all. Badge of honour! -SFC — Unsigned comment by 58.168.151.213 (talk) at 10:12 on 2 February 2008

(←) I know this discussion is long over and all but I agree that the page should be renamed Orsimer and as it as Skyrim is out it is actually mentioned that the orcs prefer their name meaning Pariah Folk as Malacath himself is seen as an outcast of the Deadra so they see themselves as outcasts too also as for the "standard name for something on this site is what it is called in the game(s)." all the elves are still occasionally refered to by their proper names in game and if I remember the guy from the arena in oblivion uses the term orsimer when you ask him who you are fighting — Unsigned comment by 90.206.2.199 (talk) at 21:29 on 7 February 2013 (GMT)

This discussion was long over, at least here. This topic has been brought up again on this very page (see below). However, to reply here, there is a difference between the Orcs and the other elves. Dunmer and Dark Elf, Altmer and High Elf, Bosmer and Wood Elf, are all used interchangeably. You can find plenty examples of both being used. The word "Orsimer" is used once in dialogue in Skyrim, and by an insane mage. As for Orcs preferring to be called "Orsimer" or "Pariah Folk", I can't find any reference to that. I found a reference to them being called "Orsimer" in a loading screen, but nothing beyond that. It just goes to show how archaic the word is by Skyrim's time. As for its use in Oblivion, it is never used in dialogue. Not once. I couldn't find a record of it ever being uttered. Even if it was used by Owyn (and it's not), that would be two characters using the word "Orsimer" in the franchise over a period of seven years IRL, and over 200 years in the ES timeline. --AKB ^{Talk Cont Mail} 21:32, 7 February 2013 (GMT)

Orc namesEdit

What page are the Orcish naming conventions on?97.100.140.150 06:49, 10 May 2009 (EDT)

I'm not sure what you mean by "conventions", but a list of orcish names can be found here. –Rpeh^{•T•C•E•} 07:29, 10 May 2009 (EDT)

The OP refers to rules of naming, such as the use of Gro and Gra in the surname. This is found here. 209.206.227.49 05:27, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

Orc language?Edit

Is there any material that would show what language the Orcs speak? In "How orsinium Passed to the Orcs" it mentions Gortwog having difficulty speaking Cyrodiilic. Any list of words? Thanks. — Unsigned comment by 174.17.250.113 (talk) on 18 May 2010

I can't find anything on that subject apart from the book you've already mentioned. Since Orcs (Orsimer) are an offshoot of the elves, it's likely to be another offshoot of the Proto-Aldmeris language family - see this for more on that topic - but exactly what, I don't know. rpeh •T•C•E• 10:42, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

Thank you. Yeah, I haven't been able to find anything at all aside from that book. Their names aren't similar to other Elven names (neither are Dunmer names to an extent), so it makes you wonder if their language would be similar either. — Unsigned comment by 174.22.231.6 (talk) at 06:12 on 22 May 2010

In the game Daggerfall one of the language skills you can choose is orcish, so i assume this is thier language. — Unsigned comment by 69.27.230.202 (talk) at 15:41 on 25 February 2012

(←) In The Elder Scrolls Online DLC Orsinium, there is some sentences, with translation, of ancient Orcs speak in the quest Sorrow's Kiss. I assume there is more words and sentences spread throughout the DLC. — Unsigned comment by 217.119.153.44 (talk) at 18:02 on 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Yep, Orcish appears in a number of places in Wrothgar. For example, "Agra Crun" means "blood shield". —Legoless (talk) 21:59, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Orc MagesEdit

Are they any good? In my opinion, No. Just wondering about everyone elses. Cirith Mara 06:00, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

This is more of a forum-style post, as are many of your other posts. There's nothing wrong with having questions like these, but you may find that you get a lot more responses (and your posts don't get deleted) on our forums. – Robin Hood↝talk 06:24, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Ohhh, I see. Sorry. Cirith Mara 06:25, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Clarification about OrcsEdit

I'm new here, so I probably might make some editing mistakes, but I am a little curious about why my edit was undone. The summary said it was better before, but I'm unclear how. *I changed beast people to elves(elves probably might not be the most accurate term though), because Orcs are beast races. They just are commonly confused as such. *Also I changed 'destroyed Trinimac' to 'ate Trinimac' as from what I've read he wasn't destroyed, only mutated in a sense from being eaten. If I read correctly he still exists, only now as the Daedric prince Malacath. *The last change was adding that he wasn't considered a true daedric lord by other daedra. I'll admit this probably belongs more on Malacath's page than the Orcs. My bad there. Not angry or anything, just curious what I messed up. — Unsigned comment by Azmius (talk • contribs) at 15:34 on 14 June 2011

It already says "dark elves" in the sentence before. To say it again is redundant. The note about Malacath not being a true daedra is not relevant to this page. It already says the stories say he was "eaten". --Brf 15:48, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

Understandable. Then I think that "beast people" should at least be removed as they are not beasts. I also know that it said "the stories say he was eaten" which is why I removed the last sentence as it became redundant, I should have mentioned that in the summary. I only made that change because Trinimac wasn't really destroyed as the article states, only changed. --Azmius 15:58, 14 June 2011

You have a good point that "destroy" is the wrong word. And "beastlike" is probably a better word than "beast", since they do not belong with the Argonians and such. They are not truly elves anymore though. They were once, but their transformation with Trinimac made them something else. --Brf 16:05, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

How about "Defeated Trinimac" instead of "Destroyed Trinimac"? — Unsigned comment by Azmius (talk • contribs) at 16:12 on 14 June 2011

Lord of Souls?Edit

Shouldn't the Wiki be updated with events up to Lord of Souls? Spoilers- Orsinium got sacked again in the 4E by Redguards and Bretons. The Refugees were escorted to Skyrim by Imperial Legions.— Unsigned comment by 168.105.125.35 (talk) at 19:38 on 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Lord of Souls came out less then a month ago, we haven't been able to go through everything yet (many of us haven't read it yet at all). If you wish to add this information yourself, this page isn't protected from editing in anyway. --AKB ^{Talk Cont Mail} 19:38, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Went ahead and added it, in case the user isn't familiar with citing and what-not. Thanks for the help, anon; I haven't had time to read LOS myself, so hopefully that info is accurate. Minor Edits 20:11, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Has anyone had a chance to confirm this info is in Lord of Souls? A few other pages could be updated. Minor Edits 18:59, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

I'll try to find the relevant phrases tomorrow, but it's such a monumentally bad book that it's a real strain to dredge the useful stuff out... rpeh •T•C•E• 19:09, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

Okay, on page 78 we have these lines (I'm not going to include the whole exchange)

"Mine died when I was seven," Mazgar said. "At the sack of Orsinium."

"Who was your mom fightning?" "Redguards and Bretons"

"I became a soldier because of her. I became an Imperial soldier because if it hadn't been for the Seventh and Fifteenth legions, a lot more of us would have died. They put themselves in harm's way for us, got the survivors to safety in Skyrim."

Mazgar remembered the terror, the chaos, the walk that went on for weeks through bitter cold-and never having enough to eat.

Mazgar gra Yagash's age is never specified, but as a warrior member of the Imperial Scouts, you have to assume somewhere in the range 20-40, which would place the siege in the range 4E7-4E27. As far as I can see, that's all the info on this topic. rpeh •T•C•E• 15:43, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

Corrupt Elves?Edit

Some anon just removed the term from the page, and it was promptly re-added. I'm just wondering if anyone has a source for the term? I can't find support for it. It's used nowhere else on this wiki, and a quick google search didn't seem to turn up anything from the Imperial Library or elsewhere. Minor Edits 20:23, 13 October 2011 (UTC) FYI, it was added by an anonymous user who made only three other edits total, all on the same day back in 2009, before he/she either quit the wiki or made an account. There are references to "Corrupt Elves" now on many message boards, but they all seem to have gotten the term from this page. Unless someone can provide a source, I say it should go. Minor Edits 20:44, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

I think that this fact should go, although it does ring a bell. Speculation upon my part pulled from my memories of past readings and dialogues - I think (or i have read) that the 'Orcs' were indeed just normal elves (somewhat like the Chimer before the Dunmer) they went under a 'magical transformation' and become Orcs. Back to fact, i think that it could be from Lord of the Rings a search of 'Corrupted Elves' brings up references or LotR sites to do with Orcs. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orc_(Middle-earth)#A_mix_of_corrupted_Elves_and_Men That small section sums it up alright though.--Kiz ^{·•· Talk ·•· Contribs ·•· Mail ·•·} 20:55, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

This is one of those times where TES kind of follows Tolkien. In The Silmarillion, Orcs are pretty much stated to be corruptions of elves captured early on in the history of Middle Earth. It's never quite made explicit, but I don't think anybody seriously doubts it. With TES, we have The True Nature of Orcs. Again, it's not explicit: "Trinimac's [was] corrupted" and "[h]is followers were likewise changed", but with Trinimac being "strongest of the Altmeri ancestor spirits", it's a fair point. I don't think it's true that Orcs are commonly called "Corrupt Elves", but I also don't think there's much doubt that's what they are. If that makes sense. rpeh •T•C•E• 21:40, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

You might think of them as corrupt elves, but that has no bearing on the fact that absolutely no one in TES uses that phrase, and the existence of the phrase in this article has helped contribute to numerous mistranslations of Orismer. 68.49.176.245 23:42, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Being a huge LotR fan, I find that rpeh is actually correct. Melkor/Morgoth, the most powerful of the gods, created beings in mockery of the Elves. TES has been shown to be heavily inspired by Tolkien's work, and this is definately another instance. On the other hand, the Lore namespace is meant to be written as though from the perspective of someone in the world of TES. As the anon above stated, no one ever calls them "corrupted elves" (to my knowledge) in the TES universe. Either way, though, I don't mind whether we keep or remove the term from the article.--Kalis Agea^{Yes? Contrib E-mail} 23:57, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

If there's nothing to back up the name, I don't think it should be on the article. --Legoless 12:07, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

Agreed. It's probably true, but without something more definite we shouldn't be including it on the article. rpeh •T•C•E• 13:18, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

Orc back to Orsimer (Again)Edit

Recently, we've had many edits altering the names of Orcs, changing it to the less used Orsimer. As you can see in the discussions above, the wiki refers to them as Orcs as virtually no one ever calls them Orsimer. Of course, the logic behind changing it isn't unsound, we refer to all the other elves by their alternative lore name. While that lack of consistency bothers me, I'd prefer to have our articles called what most people would expect for them to be called (we don't refer to Imperials as Cyrodils, despite that being a legitimate alternative). As of now, I'd prefer them to stay the same. Does anyone else have further opinions on this subject? --AKB ^{Talk Cont Mail} 05:43, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

The proliferation of terms to refer to the same subject can only be detrimental to the reader's understanding. It's just that simple. Since Orc is the preferred name in the games, especially amongst Orcs themselves, Orc is what it must be. Orsimer should be used in two situations: the singular use of explaining it is another word for Orc on the Orc page, and when it occurs in in-game text. Minor Edits 06:53, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

Editors will see the logic which elves use and feel Orcs should have the same treatment. The reality is that Dunmer, Bosmer, and Altmer are the names the elves call themselves, while Dark Elf, Wood Elf, and High Elf are all societal-imposed. 'Orc' is completely self-imposed by Orcs. Orc call each other Orcs. Even Malacath calls them Orcs, rather than Orismer. It would be like calling a human a homosapien. --Yal 10:39, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

Are they really elves?Edit

I've come to wonder if the Trinimac story is true. Our only sources for it are elves, and they're not exactly objective when it comes to their enemies. Even if Boethiah told us himself, we know that he's not trustworthy, and anything he says or does is probably intended to manipulate.

It seems like a very insulting story devised to explain why one's enemies have pointy ears just like "real" people. "Oh, well you see, once upon a time, there were two elf gods who fought. The loser god, Trinimac, was eaten by the winner, Boethiah, who crapped out the loser in a big stinky pile called Malacath, and all the elves who followed the loser god were turned into big dumb Orcs, which some scholars will know as the Crappy Elves, or Poopymer. Ha!" (And then the Orc scholar offers a rebuttal, by beating the Elven scholar to death with his warhammer.)

Does anyone know what the Orcs say about their history? Are there any orcish sources? — Unsigned comment by 108.210.16.113 (talk) at 22:47 on 1 December 2011 (GMT)

Malacath himself said in the TES novel "Lord of Souls" that the story is too "literal-minded", and thereby confirmed that the essence of the legend is correct: Trinimac and Boethiah had some sort of disagreement, resulting in him transforming into Malacath. Orcs are not usually writers, and I'm not aware of any Orcs blatantly refuting the story. Apparently the leader of Orsinium at one point wanted his people to return to worshipping Trinimac, but that's the only hint that some Orcs might reject the common understanding. Minor Edits 22:05, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

Hmm. That last bit implies that Trinimac and Malak are not the same entity. In that case, the "literal-minded" part makes sense. Interpreted metaphotically, it would seem that Boethiah defeated Trinimac and took control of his realm and powers, perhaps enslaving or binding him, and the elves who had sided with Trinimac against Boethiah were then outcast from elven society; only to be welcomed by the entity Malacath (Malak), who perhaps reshaped them to suit his own love of ugliness. --108.210.16.113 04:06, 2 December 2011

Well, the last bit also amounts to nothing more than an uncorroborated and seemingly unsuccessful proposal from the leader of a failed state, so it's not exactly the best basis for revising or further clarifying we think we know about the pantheons. Minor Edits 04:24, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

??? I'm not sure what the success of the proposal or the state has to do with the question at hand. The state could fail for any number of reasons; the proposal could fail because most orcs think Malak and Trinimac are one god and there's no point in renaming things, or it could have failed because the orcs prefer to worship Malak now over Trinimac. So that tells us nothing.

If the story of this orc leader is uncorroborated, though, that's good reason to ignore it. However, if it did happen, it means that one relatively famous orc leader openly believed the two to be separate, which would be an important bit of data from a people we know so little about. --108.210.16.113 05:35, 2 December 2011‎

Which is why that important bit of data is on the page, and readers can come to whatever conclusion they wish on the matter unless and until more information comes to light. Since you posted your question on the talk page, I assumed that you were here to discuss possible changes to the article, and my responses were meant to convey that whatever can be said about the matter is on the pages already; there's nothing more to be added or deduced on this matter. As you've demonstrated, the information can be interpreted in a variety of ways, so there's no point in filling up the page with speculation about it. If you're not here to discuss possible page alterations, this would be a discussion for the forums, not the talk page. Minor Edits 06:35, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

Just going to jump in and add that in the book Father of the Niben they appear as a beast race during the time when the Aldmer just found Tamriel. Of course the author suggests that they used the word "Orsimer" to refer to another race, as apparently "Orsimer" means "cursed folk" in Aldmeris. I'm fairly certain there's another book I read recently (in Skyrim) that also has a reference to orcs existing before they should have, but I can't remember the title.--Affubalator 17:53, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

Orcs are very well not accepted into most of the Empire's society as civilized beings actually. Most citizens of the Empire dislike having Orcs around their towns, as history has always shown them to be beastfolk. Orcs over time have tried to become apart of the same level of society which Tamriel leads, but their Orc nature ends up bringing the beast within them. Orcs have always been barbaric, causing people to always label them as beastfolk. Only in the late 3E have Orcs begun to integrate (at least with little success) into Tamerielic society. Orismer I think certainly refers to Orcs, but it may have been a more barbaric time in their history, causing the author to label them as 'different'. --Yal 10:32, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

StrongholdsEdit

Should a picture be added of an orcish stronghold, as featured in skyrim? most of the other race pages have other pictures about that race. — Unsigned comment by 202.89.38.46 (talk) at 03:10 on 26 January 2012

That's a great idea. Feel free to find one you think is nice and add it. – Robin Hood↝talk 04:41, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

You bet. The more pictures to illustrate Orc culture, the better. --Yal 10:22, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

Daedra OrcsEdit

Are Orcs Daedra? Their father is Malacath, a Daedric prince... so the Orcs should be Daedra. Am I right? — Unsigned comment by SFK363 (talk • contribs) at 15:03 on 13 April 2012 (GMT)

No, orcs are elves. They worship a Daedra. --Legoless 14:14, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

But they were his "followers"... SFK363 14:38, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

Scratch that, they're not Daedra. Malacath was Trinimac, an Aldmeri god, and his followers must have been Aldmer. SFK363 10:21, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

Many non-Daedra worship Daedra. Most Dunmer in Morrowind are Daedra worshippers as well as the famous example of the Mythic Dawn in Oblivion. --Morrolan (talk) 14:44, 12 September 2013 (GMT)

Wise Woman is the Chief's motherEdit

"The only woman in the stronghold who is not the chief's blood relative or wife is the wise woman, the spiritual guide of the stronghold." But according to the wise women in Skyrim, they are "mothers of chieftens". I read the source and it merely states the wise women are not the wives or daughters of the chief, not that they have no blood relation. --Saelune 00:52, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

Do they mean "mother" literally? Or maybe they just mean that in that they are advisers to the chieftains. Can you find the full quote to confirm this? And is it necessarily true for all wise women or maybe just some? --TheRealLurlock ^Talk 11:41, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

Speak to Bolar and she says "Wise women like myself are mothers of chieftains."--Dro'Bakha 05:19, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

Sharamph has the exact same dialogue. I'm going to add it, since it seems Bethesda was pushing the idea pretty hard. It's possible it's not meant to be understood literally, but we can leave others to speculate on it. Minor Edits^{Threats•Evidence} 02:30, 27 September 2012 (GMT)

The words "Orc" and "Orichalcum"Edit

I've been thinking about the use of this word and where it might have come from. Sure, the original name "Orsimer" shares two of the letters, but from where does the 'c' derive? I'm wondering if the answer was given to us in Skyrim, when it was revealed that the metal used to craft Orcish armor and weapons is known as "Orichalcum". It's easier to see how "Orichalcum" became shortened to "Orc" than to see the same for "Orsimer". I know the word "Orichalcum" existed outside the ES universe, and it's possible there was just some design meeting where they sat down and said "Okay, we have crafting now, so we need to come up with a name for the metal to craft Orcish stuff with..." And somebody jokingly said "Orichalcum" and the rest is history. But it's there now, and I wonder if that's sort of been retconned into the lore as a possible origin of the word "Orc"? TheRealLurlock (talk) 14:24, 2 December 2012 (GMT)

Orichalc is a real world mineral, which stems from the Latin word "orichalcum". I don't think there's any in-universe explanation for its apparent connection to the word "orc", but the mineral wasn't introduced in Skyrim. —Legoless (talk) 18:52, 2 December 2012 (GMT)

I said that it exists outside the ES universe. I just wonder if it was some sort of inside joke that they chose it to be the metal used by Orcs, or if they were trying to write that into lore somehow. TheRealLurlock (talk) 04:21, 4 December 2012 (GMT)

Did Tiber Septim Ever Fought With or Against the Orcs?Edit

I just want to know more on the Tiber Wars. I think I saw one reference in a book about Talos disliked beastfolk. If this was the case, then why were Khajiits and Argonians accepted as civilized but not Orcs? — Unsigned comment by Elidor Camoran (talk • contribs) at 22:05 on 9 June 2014

The book in question (PGE 1st Ed. The Wild Region), says Tiber was famous for his hatred of 'their kind', specifically only the Orcs. The guide doesn't include Argonians and Khajiit in its definition of beastfolk, nor does it say Tiber hated all beastfolk, just the Orcs. Silence is Golden^{Break the Silence} 22:41, 9 June 2014 (GMT)

Wood OrcsEdit

It has come to my attention that there is no section which talks about the seperate branch of Orcs living in Valenwood along with the Bosmer, known as Wood Orcs. Aelyth (talk) 12:03, 10 March 2015 (GMT)

The Iron Orcs need a section as well, and there needs to be a differentiation between City (Orsinium) Orcs and Stronghold Orcs. But to be truthful, all of the race articles need to be updated.--IceFireWarden (talk) 12:27, 10 March 2015 (GMT)

How can people still believe Orcs are elves?Edit

Aside from the dozens of earlier hints, it has now been definitively stated in ESO loading screens: "There were already Wood Orcs living in Valenwood when the Elves first arrived from Old Aldmeris." Can this not be updated? 89.200.13.216 15:56, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

That's a biased view of the sources, and one directly contradicted by the Orsinium DLC in ESO. The fact of the matter is that we do not know. —Legoless (talk) 17:43, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

Legoless How is it biased? Orcs were there before the Elves, that's established by multiple sources now. The Iron Orcs have cave paintings and were living there since long before the Nedes showed up. The Skyrim Orcs were there before the other inhabitants, by their own sources. The Wood Orcs were in Valenwood before the Elves, as were the "Orsimer" described by Topal the Pilot elsewhere in Tamriel. Even if those "Orsimer" weren't Orcs and it referred to another aboriginal species, it would debuke the meme that "-mer" somehow MUST mean they are Elves. All we have left to support it is, what? Their ears are pointy? So are scamps'. Doesn't mean elves are related to Daedra. Anyhow, if we don't know, why is every page saying they are elves? This page uses "Discerning the Transmundane" from Skyrim as source that they havr Elven blood, which is extremely far-fetched. Septimus Signus was wrong about almost everything. He thought the Heart of Lorkhan was in there, that he had Herma's favor and that Gods were much stronger than Elder Scrolls. Also, it wasn't a real Dwemer locker. If it was, how did the Infinium get in there? And why would 5 random elf species' bloods match the sixth? This is flimsy evidence at best. By the way, there is no indication that even Azura could so massively change Nirn. Daedric Lords are limited in what they can do and changing an entire race so massively? Unlikely. 77.165.250.227 02:14, 1 August 2017 (UTC)

We have conflicting sources for elven and non-elven origins, and assuming one has any more weight than the other is to miss the point of the unreliable narrator. Neither theory should be given preference here. —Legoless (talk) 02:55, 1 August 2017 (UTC)

Legoless: I agree with that but that's not currently the case. They are placed in the overview table under "Elf" and the introduction states without disputation that they have elven blood. It's not nearly as bad as Elder Scrolls Wikia but it's still misleading. By the way, just saw a statue of Mehrunes Dagon and he has pointy ears too. 77.165.250.227 13:53, 1 August 2017 (UTC)

There's a very simple way that the Orcs got to places before the Elves, without refuting the Orcish origin story. And that is that the Elven followers of Trinimac were changed into Orcs before they left Aldmeris/Summerset. That just requires the Boethiah/Trinimac issue to occur early in the Merethic, with the Velothi exodus being the first departure from Summerset, the Orsimer being after that, and the Bosmer being later again. You also have to consider the wider implications of stating that Orcs aren't Elves; if they aren't, then what are they? They certainly aren't Men, and aside from the Argonians, who came from the Hist, the only other proto-race are the Ehlnofey, and it is well established that the Ehlnofey split into the Old Ehlnofey and the Wanderers, who became exactly the proto-Mer and the proto-Men. There is no other recorded ancestry for the Orcs, aside from the widely-refuted Goblin-ken route, and that angle is only reported, as far as I remember, by the notoriously inaccurate PGE-1. --Enodoc (talk) 14:48, 1 August 2017 (UTC)

Addendum - "mer" meaning "elf" is colloquial. When translated directly from the Aldmeris, "mer" means "people" or "folk", and could therefore technically be applied to any group of people. "Betmer" (lit. "Beast Folk"), for example, includes Argonians, and it is well established that these are definitely not Elves. --E 14:55, 1 August 2017 (UTC)

Enodoc: T̶h̶e̶ ̶s̶u̶p̶p̶o̶s̶e̶d̶ ̶b̶a̶t̶t̶l̶e̶ ̶b̶e̶t̶w̶e̶e̶n̶ ̶T̶r̶i̶n̶i̶m̶a̶c̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶B̶o̶e̶t̶h̶i̶a̶h̶ ̶w̶a̶s̶ ̶"̶a̶t̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶t̶i̶m̶e̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶R̶e̶s̶d̶a̶y̶n̶"̶,̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶p̶r̶o̶t̶o̶-̶M̶o̶r̶r̶o̶w̶i̶n̶d̶ ̶n̶a̶t̶i̶o̶n̶ ̶f̶o̶r̶m̶e̶d̶ ̶b̶y̶ ̶a̶n̶ ̶a̶l̶l̶i̶a̶n̶c̶e̶ ̶b̶e̶t̶w̶e̶e̶n̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶D̶w̶e̶m̶e̶r̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶C̶h̶i̶m̶e̶r̶ ̶a̶r̶o̶u̶n̶d̶ ̶1̶E̶ ̶4̶1̶6̶.̶ ̶T̶h̶e̶ ̶e̶l̶v̶e̶s̶ ̶w̶e̶r̶e̶ ̶b̶y̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶n̶ ̶a̶l̶r̶e̶a̶d̶y̶ ̶o̶n̶ ̶T̶a̶m̶r̶i̶e̶l̶ ̶f̶o̶r̶ ̶t̶h̶o̶u̶s̶a̶n̶d̶s̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶y̶e̶a̶r̶s̶.̶ There was also no known distinction in the Aldmer yet before they came from Aldmeris, so how would these proto-Orsimer have come to be and how would they have gone to Tamriel? The tradition would still be wrong. And they would be beastfolk. Topal's writings explain that the place was already much inhabited, which makes sense. The ancestors of the Khajiit and Argonians already lived there, and seemingly so did Orcs, but he also describes intelligent "bird-men" that presumably died out since then. Orcs would be among the many aboriginal beast-men inhabiting the land before humans and elves. In that case they might be akin to goblins, but only insofar as Khajiit are akin to cats. Distantly. In the earliest games they were always enemies and Bethesda probably got rid of that goblin relation to justify their place in society more. Orcs are of course not animal-like, but clearly neither are giants, who are also marked as "beast". I know Before the Ages of Man refers to them as beastfolk, but can recall there being others. I realize there are theories about nearly all civilized races being men or mer from the old Ehlnofey, but this never takes into account the similarities with some Akaviri races, for example. I'm pretty sure the Khajiit happily took in some Ka Po Tun during the second era while they were fleeing Cyrodiil. They are said to at least resemble each other. Even the Tsaesci are serpent-men. PS: Map of Clans says those Orcs established their strongholds in the Dawn Era. 77.165.250.227 16:47, 1 August 2017 (UTC)

Oh, and Velothi himself is well established in his people's history. His biography puts him into "prominence in the Late-Middle Merethic Era" and even mentions contemporary sources describing his endeavors. As the Orcs were there most likely since late Dawn and absolutely by early Merethic, I don't think this could have ever happened before Orcs existed. 77.165.250.227 23:37, 1 August 2017 (UTC)

Orcs - White and Black SoulsEdit

At some time between the events of Daggerfall (Orcs were considered monsters, even though you ended up negotiating with them and with King Gortwog) and Morrowind (Orcs are a playable character race), Orcish souls seem to have changed from "white" to "black", and can now no longer be used to fill normal Soul Gems, only Black Soul Gems. Oddly enough, this fact has not been reported in any lore books. However, I can't help thinking that this could be linked to Gortwog's interaction with, and possible temporary possession of, the Divine powers inherent in the Mantella and Numidium during or following the events of Daggerfall? Obviously it was really just a consequence of "adding orcs as a playable race to Morrowind", but it could easily be retconned that one of the effects of the power of the Mantella/Numidium was to turn Orcish souls black - and that this is one of the reasons why, even by their enemies, Orcs are now viewed as "people" (even if ill-mannered, brutish and coarse at worst) rather than simply as "beasts": a change of attitude which evidently did not happen during the first couple of incarnations of Orsinium as a city or domain, even though surrounding nations at some point negotiated with it. Perhaps the lack of remark on Orcish souls turning black can be explained by the fact that there has been so little documented study of Black Soul Gems outside of secretive necromantic cults until recently, when it has gone sufficiently mainstream to make it into the School of Conjuration: Black Soul Gems were a well-kept secret by the Necromancer Cult of Mannimarco until recently, with even independent necromancers seldom knowing about them. It could even be explained that it took the downfall of Mannimarco's cult (at the hands of the Champion of Cyrodiil), and the subsequent discovery of some of their research, for mainstream magic colleges to understand the real distinction of black versus white soul gems, and actually understand the implications of the fact that the Orcish race had truly ascended to personhood some years before: and thus, why it was that normal soul gems no longer worked on Orcs... JLE (talk) 02:03, 1 July 2018 (UTC)

This is really a matter of game mechanics and evolving lore, as you mentioned yourself; the Orcs were just elevated, in terms of game mechanics, to the status of a race. Histories of the Orcs in sources like Pocket Guides to the Empire or their portrayal in ESO prove that the Orcs of the past weren't really different from the ones ruled by Gortwog, and whether they're viewed as beasts or people depends on the times, politics, or individuals questioned. It is reasonable to assume that their souls have always been black, and their status as monsters was just one of the ideas in the early games that gradually ended up scrapped. --Vordur Steel-Hammer (TINV1K) 11:26, 1 July 2018 (UTC)

Just want to point out that the concept of "white" and "black" souls has been totally retconned by ESO. Per Guild Memo on Soul Trapping and Sendel Droth, the distinction is a moral one which has been artificially created by the Mages Guild to prevent the harvesting of people's souls for magical purposes. Orcish souls did not "turn black", as you allege, because there is no such thing as a black soul. After the Warp, it presumably became politically incorrect to sell soul trap spells capable of capturing Orcish souls in regular soul gems. We obviously have no evidence of this, but the key point is that the real transformation was the social transformation of Orcs from beasts to Imperial citizens. The Warp in the West did not fundamentally alter the nature of their souls, it simply resulted in their race being once again considered "sentient mortals", to use the words of Vanus Galerion. The simple answer is that mainstream magical practice followed suit. —Legoless (talk) 11:57, 1 July 2018 (UTC)

Traditional Blacksmiths?Edit

So in the Orc Society page, it mentions that the Blacksmith is traditionally a woman. However, both Skyrim and dialogue from Skyrim point out that this isn't the case as men can be Blacksmiths and are even trained as such. — Unsigned comment by 68.109.20.78 (talk) at 00:03 on 2 July 2019

Traditionally does not mean always. Silence is Golden^{Break the Silence} 18:42, 2 July 2019 (UTC)

Wives of Former ChiefsEdit

It's stated that all members of strongholds are either blood relations or wives of the chieftain. A new chieftain is typically a son of the old chieftain who challenges and defeats his father. There are several examples of the siblings of the new chieftain either staying in the stronghold or leaving to find some other fate, but what happens to the wives of the former chieftain? The chieftain's mother becomes the wise woman, but what becomes of the old chieftain's other wives? I can't seem to find any mention in lore of what happens to them or any examples in the games of strongholds that still have the wives of the former chief living in them. Are they expected to leave the stronghold? Are they allowed to stay but there just don't happen to be any strongholds in Skyrim with wives of the former chief who are still alive? I think this might just be an oversight by Bethesda that's never been addressed, but does anyone know if this has been addressed somewhere that I'm just not aware of?

This is actually explored a bit in the ESO quest A Question of Succession. If you play as an Orc, you are able to become chief of the Shatul clan. If you do this and then speak to one of the previous chief's widows, Shugzur, she will state that she has no interest in "continuing the tradition" by marrying you, the new chief. Instead, she states that she intends to leave the stronghold. Note that she seems to say this no matter which gender your character has. We can from that conclude that it is customary, but not necessary, for a new chief to take the previous one's wives, at least in some clans. —Aran Anumarile Autaracu Alatasel (talk) 06:49, 10 December 2019 (GMT)

Golkarr's RaidsEdit

I dont think the edits Vamp made are inaccurate, but may just need rewording. His edit was "Orcish historians however dispute the raids on the Bjoulsae Region, according them was a utopia, the land peaceful with agriculture and commerce, its believed the truth lies somewhere in between." and the main issue is that is incorrect because the raiding clearly happened. Indeed this is true - we have several sources that mention the raids:

• Baloth Bloodtusk: "The king can preach Orc unity all he wants, but what he means is fealty. For us to bleed out in a dagger-fight he started with the Bretons."
• Gabrielle Benele: "Wasn't that the name of the Orc king from the thirty-year siege? I'd read that he invaded Stormhaven and blockaded Wayrest's trade lanes"
• Malacath: "Cursed are Igrun who praised the raiding done in their name. They hid behind these walls when called to account, rather than face their opponents directly."

No one is disputing the raids happened. But the PGE3 line is more nuanced:

It is impossible to achieve an objective look at the reality of the first Orsinium. The chronicles of the time paint a picture of a fortress ruled by savage law, leading raids on its neighbors along the Bjoulsae River. According to Orc historians, though, it was a utopia, a peaceable land of agriculture and commerce. The truth is likely somewhere in between

While its true that it doesn't explicitly say that the Orcs didn't raid during this time (indeed, the act of raiding other people may be the definition of a utopia for an Orc) that's not what's being said here. The word "peaceable" is used. That tells us that Orc revisionist historians of the 3rd Era are trying to (wrongly) paint Orsinium under Golkarr are a peaceful nation. And peaceful nations would not raid others. And that the siege was a war of aggression. It wouldn't make sense for these historians to claim Orsinium was peaceful, but at the same time not dispute that they conducted raids on the Bretons. While we know the raids happened, its still fair to note that some revisionist Orcs disagree with that take. --Jimeee (talk) 17:54, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

As far as I understood it years back, it was peaceful under King Torug but when King Golkarr took power he allowed the Bjoulsae raids to begin and had no interest in stopping them. I wrote what I could here https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Bjoulsae_Raids https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Golkarr The Rim of the Sky (talk) 00:41, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

Edit warryingEdit

While I can understand that some might find anything not 100% confirmed with a certificate of authenticity to be speculation, article itself had some GRAVE missing sections and GRAVE errors before i took a cursory care about it. For starters, users totally got an arguable (either or) stance on Cursed Legion that is patently wrong - Cursed Legion is a 3e endevour (we take a simplest approach without speculation about it being a resurrected order or similar attempts) that Old Tunner (and, arguably, many other 3E Orcs) were members of. No mention of it in 2e rather completely obliterates its appearance in PRE 1E Orsinium ike some would want. No fishstick for you. Second of all, Hammerfell 1E section, is all of my doing, heavily sourced, at that. Moreover, users already undertook speculation - placing the Altmer releasing slaves as a cause of Iron Orcs, Woood Orcs, all Orcs exisitng, while forgetting about Yokudan Orcs and Altmoran Orcs. So, a precedense exists and I gladly took advantage of it.

My attempt if anything is more valid, due to at least being sincere enough to actually add this new missing lore - and - to not leave it a hole-riddled alogical mess (as a current version of lore page) - by providing a hypothesis to join those disjointed points of data into a coherent message. A hypothesis still, but quite a concrete one. To an user that is arguaing that Orcs were never "Chimer" - why wouldnt they? Chimer if I recall correctly is either Northern Folk or Changed Folk, and at the very early time, was an all encompassing term for all Altmer that were exiled (voluntarily or not) from Sumurset. I think one book gathers both groups as one, that together traveleld for a time being. I deleted this and some other parts as a gesture of good will ,yet some of you have tought themselves my betters and deleted all my 3500 word work. FFS, you guys had Orsinium founding all wrong, not even deigning themsleves to mention its founder.

Now, that it is personal, I won't leave that be and I consider my contribution sufficient. I'd suggest you patch the page with Orsinium DLC info, about Clans, about Trinimac Aldmer Heroes, and all that jazz.

62.122.118.177 14:19, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

The main issue we have is that there is to much speculation, all the stuff has to have some valid sourcing, and it has to be up to a standard, one of the editors, I was talking with, is going to look at this, and see what can be done with the Merethic Era section, we do appreciate your efforts to try and help. But you are clearly new at this and we can't just post our own personal headcanons, and have to take a more using sources and references to list stuff. Let me and other more experienced editors better then me even Work on this, and like you I want to see all kinds of expansion on this page. I recommend, you make an account and look at our editing guides and other policies.

Here you are.

• Policies and Guidelines: UESPWiki standards and expectations
• Help Contents: a list of in-depth Help pages
• Quick Editing Guide: a quick guide to wiki markup
• Getting Started: how you can help TheVampKnight (talk) 15:04, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

After looking at the main issues:

Some accounts circumstantially connect Orcs with the mysterious Left-handed Elves, given their shared use of Orichalcum and their presence on Yokuda before Ra Gada invasion.

Assumption. Both sources vaguely mention Orcs, but its nowhere near strong enough to make a claim they actually existed in these lands.

Furthermore, Orcs were known to be present in Merethic Era Atmora and this population might have been the one that settled the northern wastes near Saarthal.

Pure speculation based on "nearby Orcs" which can mean anything. Plus the source is an Imperial understanding of events, which is often contradictory.

Based on that evidence one can reasonably state, that then-Aldmer Orsimer were a pre-Aldmeris caste of Trinimac's worshippers/descendants that were ontologically affected, Nirn-wide, by his fall. This theory would explain Orsimer prehistoric presence on Altmora, Yokuda and Tamriel. That would mirror, on a much larger scale, the confirmed Chimer (Dunmer ancestors) and Khajjit legendary Daedric meddling into their racial origins.

Original Research.

Early Orcs might have also been called Chimer at this stage of their history, as Chimer originally meant "Changed Folk" before being fixed to mean Veloth's hosts of religious refugees.

Original Research.

If others parts of the article are incorrect or speculative, they it should be brought up, instead of using it as a reason in add more speculation.

--Jimeee (talk) 15:45, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

Yes, "original research" - that is lifted from a certain book, that threats Chimer as both later-Chimer and later-Orsimer, I did delete, due to being bogged with your petty lot and not having time to find it. Also I did it as a token of goodwill ,that I indeed can be reasoned with and might agree for a benefit of the whole.

As for other points - a newly uncovered lore I added - pretty much gives a big additional yes to Atmoran Orcs - as they were known by Atmorans on their home turf and they predate Nords "after fleeing to the wastes of Saarthal"(a region that was then or later known as Saarthal). Either way, this is in direct contradiction with Aldmer releasing them in early to middle First Era by at least 500 years. I cannot say with certainty, yet I cannot ignore them - they either are of Sumerset joined "Chimer" or of Atmora. We cannot ignore that lead for the sake of a few voices that do not do anything constructive. Either we threat Orcs question as a multifocal one - or we delete all but one accounts of their history - but which version would we pick? Sole Sumerset? Sole Aldmeris? Sole Native? My approach is an elegant one that DOES NOT speculate yet joints those differing as contradictory, at first glance, pieces of their origin. History will vindicate me, but even now I can defend my stance by sheer material value62.122.118.177 16:10, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

I'd like to know why do you have so much ill-used gumption to delete my hard work, heavily sourced at that, without reason with such a cavalier attitude. I'd be nice you reverted your action, for I will not leave it be. 62.122.118.177 20:22, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

I have seen the recent history of this page and have reverted all edits in the current period to give me an opportunity to look into the conflict and so that the edits could be reviewed in-depth without worrying about the current quality of the page (which could have been circumvented by the use of a sandbox or by exploring the advice provided by Jimeee). Considering the size and number of other contentious edits made in the same period of time, this may take some time, but it is actively being done. --AKB ^{Talk Cont Mail} 20:43, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

(←) Having taken some time to review this edit (it fell towards the bottom of my task list), I feel that the original reversion was the best course. Almost all of the important information from the edit in question was already present in the previous section, but presented in a better manner. The rest of the information that wasn't present seems to be inaccurate or speculation. I saw no clear connection to Orcs with the Lefthanded Elves in the sources provided. I saw no evidence there were Orcs in Atmora in the sources provided, yet the edit stated with certainty that they were present in Tamriel, Atmora, and Yokuda before Aldmer colonization of mainland Tamriel. Any new claim that was added by this series of edits cannot be tied to any actual statement from any official source. --AKB ^{Talk Cont Mail} 18:57, 15 February 2022 (UTC)